The ORV program was not moved from the Dept of Education over to the DNR because kids were not getting trained, it was moved by Executive Order of Jennifer Granholm [Governor] as a direct result of budget restraints and budget re-directions and nothing else.

And further, we never DEMANDED that the Attorney General get involved in this ruling, we only requested it. Dont you find it IRONIC [at best] that for YEARS the Department of Education had NO PROBLEM reading into the Administrative Rules that allowed non-profits Grant Funding, than when the DNR takes over the program, they read the SAME rules a DIFFERANT WAY? I'll tell you WHY. Their GOAL right from the beginning was to put an END to ANYBODY outside of a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency to STOP instructing. Another words, if you were not into their little LEO click---YOU were OUT OF THE INSTRUCTING PICTURE..PERIOD!

I am privy to a DNR officer friend of mine and believe me when I tell you that the DNR does not want outside involvement in these safety courses.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
"...The ORV program was not moved from the Dept of Education over to the DNR because kids were not getting trained, it was moved by Executive Order of Jennifer Granholm [Governor] as a direct result of budget restraints and budget re-directions and nothing else..."

Yeah, and the fact that we suddenly went from 2800 kids being trained one year to over 7,000 kids receiving some kind of training the next...had absolutely nothing to do with that decision either.
No disrespect meant whatsoever, Bill...yet it's becomming to be like trying to hit a moving target with you on these issues. I've written literally pages above of indisputable facts related to both the failures of this program and the very solutions required to fix it (involving even your non-profit working on a competitive rather than a 100% unneeded 'subsidized' level)...and seemingly to you...these facts deserve absolutely no commentary whatsoever. (can you now see why conservative minded enthusiasts have painted Michigan's overall training system as simply all these liberal-minded non-profit's fight for non-existant 'victims' somehow needing subsidized giveaways?).

"...And further, we never DEMANDED that the Attorney General get involved in this ruling, we only requested it...."

Bill....if these leaders are going to cry about how the law has been broken and that (by gosh) you all deserve some amount of money that is due you...then quit arguing silly 'semantics' above and simply PROVE your point to these people.... rather than "requesting" that the state of Michigan to spend our hard-earned money disproving whatever in the heck you folks come up with after there isn't a leg to be stood up upon.
We'll all certainly be on your side if the law is indeed being broken....just don't 'say' it is...and then simply drop the whole matter if and whenm the state actually calls you all on it.

"...Dont you find it IRONIC [at best] that for YEARS the Department of Education had NO PROBLEM reading into the Administrative Rules that allowed non-profits Grant Funding, than when the DNR takes over the program, they read the SAME rules a DIFFERANT WAY? I'll tell you WHY. Their GOAL right from the beginning was to put an END to ANYBODY outside of a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency to STOP instructing. Another words, if you were not into their little LEO click---YOU were OUT OF THE INSTRUCTING PICTURE..PERIOD!..."

Yeah, it's all one big 'conspiracy' that could actually be proven if our overall kid's safety were worth making the effort to do so.
Tell me something...if our orv leaders are so hell fire certain that the state is 100% absolutely wrong on this and that the DOE has been distributing funds properly for all these years...why don't you simply take them to court on it and ask the orv community to help defray your expenses?

Or does paying back all that money; coupled with a knowledge within this community that the parents taking those classes and accepting these funds didn't actually <u>need</u> these ridiculously granted subsidies anyways...give orv leadership some 'cause to pause' as to any actual support coming forth on this issue fron the community itself?

 

Yeah, and the fact that we suddenly went from 2800 kids being trained one year to over 7,000 kids receiving some kind of training the next...had absolutely nothing to do with that decision either. :rolleyes--END OF QUOTE*

''SOME KING OF TRAINING''???????
You've got to be kidding me? OBVIOUSLY you have never sat thru a class put on by one of these LEO clowns that the DNR hired overnight? I have, and they suffer greatly,as do the majority of instructors that teach them.Tell me how in the hell can the DNR give a Barry County Deputy allmost OVERNIGHT, his license to instruct an ORV safety class [with NO training] on the mere merit of him being a LEO, and than have that SAME LICENSED ORV safety Instructor call MY office and ask ME what/how he is suppose to teach?[ I have a TAPED recording of this request]This is mostly WHAT is teaching your 7000 kids under the DNR.

You go ahead and BRAG all you want about going from 2800 kids trained in one year UP to 7000 kids the next year under the DNR, but you know what? The 2800 kids that were trained under the DOE Administration were trained by PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED INSTRUCTORS who actually had REAL credentials to teach. If the DNR is going to suck the ORV safety fund DRY with mostly untrained CLOWNS for instructors, than WHY make safety courses even MANDIDTORY in the first place?Alls you do here is make a complete JOKE out of something [the safety of our kids and the education of their PARENTS] that I personally take very seriously
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me something...if our orv leaders are so hell fire certain that the state is 100% absolutely wrong on this and that the DOE has been distributing funds properly for all these years...why don't you simply take them to court on it and ask the orv community to help defray your expenses?
END OF QUOTE*

You cant even get the ORV community to assist with attending an ORV meeting or assisting in helping out a weekend during the year to help with trail maintenace. Most have NO IDEA how the system even works. They only know that for their 16.25 cents, that they get trails to ride. I just know they'll all be excited to help defray other costs.

 

I believe that we will simply have to agree to disagree here; as I can't even get any kind of acknowledgement from you that parents should be paying for their own kid's safety classes in the first place...or that they should even prove hardship if they feel 'put upon' or victimized when asked to do so.

The liberal mind-set that this sport posesses in relation to safety-related matters. bleeds right into our less than eager attitudes regarding true pay-to-play programs and responsible positions on protecting the land that we affect every day.

The arguments that I have laid out above are the foundations of any kid's safety program; no matter what the sport.

And our not even agreeing on the basics?...is a reflection on our leadershp as a whole...and not necessarily two mere community 'peons' in disagreement up on the net.

 

"...are you actually reading these posts or are we simply 'miscommunicating' here?"
Posted by: blackballed on 08/18/2007


Oh, I assure you sir, I am reading these post. Including the one containing this piece of misinformation:


"Again, kids becomming more safe in this sport has never been an issue of dirt poor parents and their inability to 'afford' training. We've never screened for this non-existant problem; no parent worth their salt in the history of our sport has ever complained about it and (frankly) the only ones out there pushing to cut other programs are the only ones standing to benefit from those cuts."

Posted by: blackballed on 08/18/2007


Please, take off the blinders of anger and start DOING something about the problem, besides complaining about things YOU, individually, are obviously powerless to change. That said, here's what we are doing.

#1
In April 2007, a special two day ATV Safety Training Program was presented to all middle and high school students in Clay County, Kentucky. This was a direct result of 3 kids between the ages of 15 and 17 being KILLED while engaged in the activity of ATV riding over a 5 month period. During the same period, 4 other kids, ages 11 to 14 were seriously injured in the same county, while engaged in the same activity. While we know it won't last, there have been NO serious ATV accidents involving teenagers in this county since that safety training event took place.

#2
Between March and October 2007, a total of 10 ATV Safety & Rescue Courses will have been taught to an estimated +200 Fire, Rescue, Emergency Medical and LEO personnel statewide. The results of this UNFUNDED training is a reduction in the number of ATV accidents resulting in DEATH to persons riding ATV's as a result of an UNTRAINED response to the incident. Proof of the effectivness of this type of training can be found in the first two articles on this webpage:

http://www.EEResQ.com/_wsn/page14.html


In stead of a perpetually arguing about the problem, launch an attack in a new direction.

As an example, in response to a journalist statement and question:

"Sir. You are surrounded by 10 Chinese divisions, are you retreating?"

Maj. Gen. Oliver Smith, USMC stated: "Retreat HELL! We're just attacking in another direction."
Korea, December 1950.

 

I dont disagree for a second that the parents need to foot the bill for their kids safety training. What we disagree on is how you brag about how many kids were trained under the DOE vs the DNR.

DOE instructors were real trained instructors. Most of those hired under the DNR administration dont even own or ride an ATV/ORV. These instructors are there only because they wear a badge and can make the ''NUMBERS'' look higher, in an attempt to make the DNR look like they know what their doing and nothing else.

Kids and parents suffer here.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...I dont disagree for a second that the parents need to foot the bill for their kids safety training. What we disagree on is how you brag about how many kids were trained under the DOE vs the DNR...."

What I am trying to get across here...is that you (evidently) support the TRIPLING of a single program funding percentage level while effectively reducing the funding percentage levels of all other programs in an orv budget...and then want to REDUCE the overall money needed to fund that single program you are trying to increase by leaps and bounds?

Where will all that extra money being going if we just saved a boatload of money by (finally) kicking all these parents to the side of this welfare-like feeding trough? (in other words; why would a decrease in need.... trigger an increase in subsidies...to whom?).

 

Sure, you call it a TRIPLING of funds and in a sense it is, however, my problem with that ''tripling'' issue is that the ORV safety fund was UNDER FUNDED in the first place. With only one dollar going into the ORV safety portion of the fund from the begining, we were going to run out of funds REAL FAST in this area. So IMO, a re-vamping of this entire PIE formula is badly needed and was WRONG right from the begining.

If someone pays your company 10 bucks for a bottle of pop, and you plan to put,

*5.00 away for the pop itself
*3.00 away for the cap
*1.75 away for the labling
*.25 cents for the bottle itself
and later thru financing you find out that some of the % in these area's were wrong in the first place, are you not going to make the necessary adjustments to make things more efficient for your company?

The ORV formula's need re-vamping and we need to get rid of the ORV safety part of the fund if only in-ept LEO Instructors are able to qualify for this part of the ORV funding.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:

"...Sure, you call it a TRIPLING of funds and in a sense it is, however, my problem with that ''tripling'' issue is that the ORV safety fund was UNDER FUNDED in the first place. With only one dollar going into the ORV safety portion of the fund from the begining, we were going to run out of funds REAL FAST in this area. So IMO, a re-vamping of this entire PIE formula is badly needed and was WRONG right from the begining...."

How do you run out of or even come up short on training related funds....if those same funds consist mainly of subsidies to trainers...that you've already admitted should be replaced by direct payments from the parents themselves?

Hey, I'm all for using that same dollar out of our sticker fund to train many more even 'qualified' instructors; so that there's more good 'ol competition out there and the price for parents is forced to remain reasonable...but again...how stupid do our leaders believe us to be when money is wholesale saved in this manner...yet the gouging never stops?

 

How do you run out of or even come up short on training related funds....if those same funds consist mainly of subsidies to trainers--END OF QUOTE**

Thats the easiest one yet to explain!
You simple GIVE that money away to ANY of the MANY improperly trained and most often UNTRAINED 500 or so officers that were hired overnight by the DNR to instruct ORV safety classes. WATCH how fast that ORV safety fund can/will be SUCKED DRY than. --''OR'' you could have some retired Sheriff officer get 91 kids together at the same dealership [all at the same time] and get paid 25 bucks per kid [$2.275 out of the ORV safety fund] for the 3 hr class that he just put on.And the same in-ept officer just told one of your kids that they can ride any of the power lines they want in *******. [COMPLETE MIS-INFORMATION]

Go ahead, defend these DNR cops all you want, but there IS a reason WHY I've met with them in Lansing over 11 times in the last 2 years. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that they KNOW about the problem that exsists with their hired LEO's who perform ORV safety classes.