<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

Law as it is practiced in the US is a funny animal. How do you propose we get 50 states to agree on anything? Each is different. We can't get them to agree on a common set of standards, how do you think this will pan out?

I don't think punishment is the answer. I did at one time, but that wsa driven by wanting to hold someone accountable. But what do you do in the case where the child is gven strict instructions, and disobeys them and gets killed? The parent goes to jail because he bought a full size machine for himself and left teh keys somewhere the kid could get them... I don't think so.. You have trigger locks on guns and kids find a way to get killed with a locked gun... It happens.



No matter what you legislate, you are not going to cover all the bases, and you end up hurting the legit parent that is a victim of his child having an accident. You can't have it both ways, and the LAW cannot be subjective... This isn't a black and white subject. You cannot always find a right or wrong answer.</end quote></div>

I agree the line between unfortunate accident/mishap, negligence, gross negligence, child endangerment, and a host of other similar criminal acts, is a morass of black, white, gray, and every other shade in between. That's why there are courts, judges, and juries to make the final call.

In the case you mention about leaving keys where the kid can get them - is its always an accident or lapse of judgment if parents leave keys around for the kid to grab and hop a ride? I know when our older son was at that age we always took all the keys if my wife and I went out for a meal and he was left alone. The temptation is too great to run the risk.

What about a parent failing to put child safe locks on every cabinet reachable by a toddler and the toddler opens one up and eats a bunch of rat poison? What about the parent who puts a loaded gun in the closet for protection and the kid gets into it and kills himself? What about the parent who lets his kid ride a ATV without a helmet, crashes into a ditch, and hits his head on a rock and becomes paralyzed?
There are a million different scenarios but in all cases it is the parent's best interest for themselves and the innocents to take more precautions than less.

 

Hey DB,

Just got in from a two day road trip and was checking the email before collapsing.

As WT said, "That's why there are court, judges, and juries to make the final call."

However, I'll take it one step further. Most states (if not all) include the element of "Knowingly" in laws which make parents (and other responsible adults) "responsible" for the actions of a minor under their control. This concept is sometimes broadened by the phrase "Did knowingly ... , or should have known ..." in an attempt to exclude from prosecution, those parents or guardians whose children or charges are involved in what is truly an "accident."

 

There is a post in another area of the forum. Truly sad that a father is sharing his personal experience losing his daughter a few weeks ago due to head trauma from an ATV rollover.

Innocent killed


Beyond the horrible loss and tragedy, it pains me to hear of another senseless death of an innocent at the hands of an adult.

Our discussion here recently covered some ground which is extremely relevant to this case as it involves the responsibility and accountability of a supervising adult. Clearly this did not need to happen and I hope others would get off their asses and take notice.

EEResQ, Dragginbut and myself have carried this topic alone for quite awhile. The lack of participation from others could mean a number of things; I hope it does not mean it is not being read by at least a few; otherwise, it would be very sad to think that others don't give a rat's *** about ATV safety. I KNOW for a fact there are some of the forum riders who do not adhere to the basic golden rules of ATV safety.

It is so frustrating and senseless to learn about innocents dying when just following the basic rules would prevent so many of them from being hurt or killed. I wish there was more we can do here to promote safety and riding safely as this is a very dangerous activity that must me engaged in taking extra yet simple, painless, and easy precautions.

 

I have been following but not commenting. The discussion seems to be more toward what can we put on paper for law and what can we have for punishment than toward actually influencing the rider/operator. Any semi intelligent legislator can put a law on paper. Laws normally only come into play after there has been an infraction, then you go to the penalty phase. I would be more interested in a method to get EDUCATION to the operator followed with willing compliance. That cannot be legislated. I mentioned way back in the threads about Federal agencies locking the public off of most public land. That is a fact that has to be considered in the safety discussion as most of these riders will continue to ride somewhere and with congestion and large numbers come added risk and opportunity for injury. The incident you related about the death............no helmet........skull crushed..........Its probably already covered by a law? It was not complied with? A death occurred. Would one, two, or three more laws have helped? No, will the penalty phase make any difference? No. Willing compliance and common sense on the part of the individual is the only thing that will help........Tass

 

I think Windtrder, that you are where I was a few years ago. You read the stories, compile the statistics... you are mesmerized by them. You want to look away, but are drawn to them. You are sick, confused, upset.. want to do something, but don't know what to do... You reach out for answers of why and you end up with more questions than you started with... All I can say is don't become so fixated on them... it will eat you alive. Simply put, you help when and where you can. You try to provide good common sense and safe answers, and you pray it is enough... Otherwise, you will go nuts trying to find answers that are not there. No matter what you do, you will not stop them all.

 

Thanks for summing it up. I've already come to the realization that the most I can do is to ensure myself and my son have good safety gear, ride responsibly, take accountability as a supervising adult, and follow the basic golden rules. Nearly all the incidents occur from failing to follow these simple steps. So, I feel good that I am doing all I can to be safe.

As to others, you are correct that you there is very little, if anything to do to make others adhere to even the most simple actions like make everyone wear a helmet when sitting on a ATV, even if it is turned off.

If adults want to be ignorant or act stupid, then they get what's coming; I'm all for that. It is the failure of adult supervision of underage riding accidents that REALLY pisses me off. Once past the grieving in that other incident, someone needs to be held accountable for that extremely unfortunate and unnecessary fatality.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Once past the grieving in that other incident, someone needs to be held accountable for that extremely unfortunate and unnecessary fatality.
WT</end quote></div>

And, the fact that someone was held responsible needs to be plastered all over the place!

 

Windtrader, that is exactly THE answer. The number one thing that concerned people can do is make sure THEY set the right example. We are growing new generations of riders every time we take our kids out to ride. It starts with personal responsibility, with rules and limitations. It continues with good examples, with making sure we have all the gear we can afford and making sure they use it, it continues with supervising their riding.. and choosing where they ride. When done right, we are going to end up with responsible adults that pass on their knowledge to their kids.
One thing I have found to be true also is that kids have a way to get the message accross to other kids inways that we can't even imagine. believe me, if you kids have safety on their mind, others will get the message. You see it in every sport. Take baseball for example. One kid gets batting gloves, next week half the team has them. Within a few games, all the kids on the team will have them. Same goes for gear, safety actions etc. IT works.
Good for you! keep up the good work with the kids.

 

Unfortunately,there will always be accidents.Its all about personal responsibility.And that means being responsible for your minor son or daughters riding habits.Always wear a helmet.It is dangerous to put others lives in danger from the carelessness of your or your familes riding.Respect others.Teach responsibility when riding and always ride to your ability, knowledge of trails, and weather conditions.And never drink and drive at all, especially if you are underage (not 21)!!!

 

i make a living going up and the nations highways and interstates.my .02 worth is people ride their atv's like they drive their car the only diffrence is your more likely to die in an atv accident.the next time you go out take a look at the auto's around you.you'll be surprized how many of them have dents busted lights,hoods and bumpers