<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I know some will now preach to us about everything from the govt's responsibility to fix things (somehow never seems to work that way anyhow) and to protect our children from their families, but lets not lose sight of the real issue of who is ulitimately responsible for their family in the first place, and that a parents choices no matter good or bad that only affect their family directly are punished or rewarded by laws that are well above any of ours, and its their family that either prospers or suffers loss from it.</end quote></div>Can you clarify this statement?It could be interpreted to mean that parents who make bad choices that result in bad things happening should not be subject to the legal system's laws and statutes. For example, if a father molests his daughter in the privacy of his home, is that to be ignored by the legal system to protect the child? If a father has a six pack with the boys then loads the kids into the car and drives into a tree, maiming one and killing the other. Does the "law well above any of ours" deal with this?

There is no clear answers as the entire topic is one large slippery slope as far as I am concerned. You can take the libertarian position to the extreme and call for no government controls or the other side of the bleeding liberals who have to save and care for everyone. Somewhere in the middle is a balance between governmental involvement and individual control and accountability.

 

Well no and yes but let me clarify

Surely illegal acts that are serious like molestation, abuse, murder etc are not what I was referring to, but if you minus the drinking part of that accident and its just stupidity at work then I honestly believe he will be suffering more than what our court system wasting our tax dollars could do to him etc.

And that above all law or whatever you want to call it is God (well at least to some, but I think most believe in something that allows a greater being or power that in someway make things right etc)

Now I totally agree with your second paragraph, and finding that someware in the middle without being labled a moderate and discounted entirely seems to be the major problem in finding legislators who can fix our real problems.

I have been finding I am spending more time on things like that lately (most likely from all the presidential debate stuff) and low and behold I am not the only one who seems to like the ones talking about reducing govt or atleast spending.

What really confuses me is all the people who seem to find comfort in all the lies about our govt taking even better care of them than they have already (totally sarcastic if you didnt get that lol) and how they are following the candidates who are offering empty promisses that if they ever did manage to make good on would most likely push our economy and what remains of the middle class right over the edge.

Still I think we all would be better off if the govt stopped intruding into our lives and supported "family" instead of continually creating situations and laws that errode it.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Lets face it the loss of a child is beyond devestating and the idea of prosecuting a grandfather for the loss of his grandson is a bad idea from every angle I can see. Sure it will make the newspapers and nightly news, but it will not help the family one bit, and will never undo what has been done."

440EX026</end quote></div>

Hey Folks,

After an 8 day trip to the left coast, I've just now caught up enough on my business backlog to get back in the discussion here.

Welcome back 440EX026!

As harse as it sounds, if enforcement of child endangerment laws was the norm rather than the exception in preventable child ATV fatalities, this may have been enough to make this grandfather THINK before he engaged in the activity that resulted in this tragic loss.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
9-Year Old Boy Dies In ATV Accident
January 20, 2008

A 9-year-old boy died in an all-terrain vehicle crash Sunday afternoon in rural Garvin County, Oklahoma, according to an Oklahoma Highway Patrol report.

The Davis, OK, boy was driving a Yamaha 350 ATV on private property near I - 35 and OK State Highway 7 when the crash occurred about 1 PM, the patrol said.

He was traveling downhill when the vehicle slid and rolled one and a half times, eventually pinning the youth underneath.

The boy, who was wearing a helmet, was taken to a Sulphur hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The patrol cited driver inexperience and youth as the cause of the crash in its report.</end quote></div>

Unfortunately, the report did not say why a 9-year-old boy (average weight of 90 pounds soaking wet), was permited to operate a motor vehicle weighing between 375 lb. (Yamaha Raptor 350), and 536 lb. (Yamaha Bruin 350) in the first place!

 

I think everyone is making good points. The problems I feel stem from a couple things. Role models are definitely needed. And perhaps, we should re-evaluate what we all think is "Cool". To some it might be doing wheelies for miles, others might think taking the machine into a mud hole and wreaking havoc on the environment is the best way to spend a summer day... Flying through the air, or just putting along the trail.. they are all good ideas.
Some of us like to buy every possible widget and piece of chrome, while others may buy a machine, and not wash it until they decide to sell it 5 years later... We are all different.

Laws are the same deal... some states let you do this or that, while others do not. There is no consistency in laws, or law enforcment. Welcome to our world boys and girls. That is exactly what the issues are. I might feel one way, and you might feel another. Thank God we all live in a country that lets us disagree and state our opinions.

I hate to see people acting like idiots, but they have the right to do so. Hey, if you want to splatter your brains on a tree, go ahead. Don't expect me to clean up after you though. Or feel sorry for you. Helmets are a good thing in my book, but someone else may feel enclosed.. OK. It is your head. The truth is, I can't change your mind... so I am not going to lose any sleep cycles.
So what is the answer to the original question? Plain and simple. Cut the horsepower wars. Make them WIDER. Update the CPSC guidelines by adding a 125 engine size rule for 12 to 16 year olds on an intermediate sized frame. Mandatory safety equipment for children under 18. You do all that, and you will have a serious impact on safety numbers. Everything else is plain hot air.

 

You know, this is becoming so commonplace that I almost overlooked this sad event as a followup to the 9-year-old killed in an ATV accident only 3 days ago; unfortunately, it wasn't.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Boy, 9, Dies After ATV Accident
Andalusia, Alabama
Wednesday, January 23, 2008

A weekend accident claimed the life of a 9-year-old Opp boy and sent three others to the hospital Saturday.

Reports indicate that officers with the Opp Police Department were dispatched to a vacant lot on Folsom Street in the Capital Heights subdivision late Saturday afternoon after receiving a call of an overturned all-terrain vehicle (ATV).

"Our investigation revealed that four juveniles were riding an ATV when it overturned, causing the death of one of the juveniles and injuring the remaining three," OPD assistant police chief Mike McDonald said.

While the OPD did not release the name of the juvenile killed in the accident, a family friend identified the boy as Colby Lane Ramer, a fourth grader at South Highlands Elementary School.

Ramer, along with the three other 10-year-olds, was riding a "mule-style" ATV when the accident occurred.

"From what we can tell, Colby was driving and the other occupants were riding in the bed," the family friend said. "It flipped over, threw them out of the back and then it (the ATV) landed on Colby.

"The thing they were riding on was kind of like a John Deere Gator, but bigger," the family friend said. "This is the kind of thing you never expect to happen - you never want to happen."

The family friend was one of the first people to arrive at the scene of the accident.

"We got a telephone call from one of the boys saying there had been a wreck," the family friend said. "We thought they were overreacting. We didn't believe them.

"When we got there, you could see the ATV was over on its side on top of the boy and we tried to move the thing off of him, but he wasn't breathing," the family friend said. "We thought that if we moved it off of him, he'd start breathing, but he didn't."

Ramer was pronounced dead at the scene, and the other three juveniles were transported to Mizell Memorial Hospital where they were treated for minor injuries and released.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>6-Year-Old Seriously Injured In ATV Roll Over Accident
Orlando, FL

Orlando Police say a 19 year old took a family friend, a six year old girl, for a ride on an all-terrain vehicle, then crashed. The child was not wearing a helmet, and now the teenager is looking at child neglect charges.

Cassandra King witnessed the accident and says she can't stop thinking about the little girl who is receiving treatment at Arnold Palmer Hospital.

King was pulling into her driveway Monday evening when she saw the 4-wheel ATV tip over on the other side of this fence. She saw the girl lying in the street just feet away from a speed bump.

"She was unconscious when I got to her. I was praying that she didn't die. She had a big injury across her back, and I knew she had either some skull or spinal injury," King said.

Police say 19-year-old Jeremy Mincey was operating the ATV, which witnesses say landed on the girl. Mrs. King held the little girl's head and called to a neighbor to dial 911.

According to police Mincey tried to sneak away, afraid of getting in trouble with his father. After a short foot chase, police arrested him and charged him with child neglect and resisting an officer.</end quote></div>

This isn't an accident ... IT IS A CRIME!!!

Now, treat it as a crime.

 

Now lets be reasonable.

If the potential loss of your grandchilds life isnt going to make you aware of your actions, then how can any law make a difference.

I appreciate the honest attempt to make things right or save a life etc, but I believe in my heart that further govt intrusion isnt going to help, and if history has taught us anything it will most likely make things worse.

Has anyone considered that its the parents responsibility to raise their children, and ultimately they are to praise or blame for the results? Why should we or any agency believe that its up to us, or even worse to push our beliefs onto them thru manipulation of the legal system!


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Lets face it the loss of a child is beyond devestating and the idea of prosecuting a grandfather for the loss of his grandson is a bad idea from every angle I can see. Sure it will make the newspapers and nightly news, but it will not help the family one bit, and will never undo what has been done."



440EX026</end quote></div>



Hey Folks,



After an 8 day trip to the left coast, I've just now caught up enough on my business backlog to get back in the discussion here.



Welcome back 440EX026!



As harse as it sounds, if enforcement of child endangerment laws was the norm rather than the exception in preventable child ATV fatalities, this may have been enough to make this grandfather THINK before he engaged in the activity that resulted in this tragic loss.</end quote></div>

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>6-Year-Old Seriously Injured In ATV Roll Over Accident

Orlando, FL



Orlando Police say a 19 year old took a family friend, a six year old girl, for a ride on an all-terrain vehicle, then crashed. The child was not wearing a helmet, and now the teenager is looking at child neglect charges.



Cassandra King witnessed the accident and says she can't stop thinking about the little girl who is receiving treatment at Arnold Palmer Hospital.



King was pulling into her driveway Monday evening when she saw the 4-wheel ATV tip over on the other side of this fence. She saw the girl lying in the street just feet away from a speed bump.



"She was unconscious when I got to her. I was praying that she didn't die. She had a big injury across her back, and I knew she had either some skull or spinal injury," King said.



Police say 19-year-old Jeremy Mincey was operating the ATV, which witnesses say landed on the girl. Mrs. King held the little girl's head and called to a neighbor to dial 911.



According to police Mincey tried to sneak away, afraid of getting in trouble with his father. After a short foot chase, police arrested him and charged him with child neglect and resisting an officer.</end quote></div>



This isn't an accident ... IT IS A CRIME!!!



Now, treat it as a crime.</end quote></div>

EEResQ

Maybe were not thinking as differently as some may think, but if you want to call this a crime and put responsibility (and any punishment etc) where is belongs then shouldnt we be doing the same for all areas of life?

Consider that almost all of what we call auto accidents are actually little more than crashes, and that these crashes almost always have real causes that are the fault of one driver or another. Inattention, eating, drinking, wiping a stain, searching the glove box, etc while driving, not maintaining your vehicle, improper training, not knowing your vehicles abilities, and a host of other driver errors are what causes these crashes. Should criminal charges be placed against every driver who is truely the cause of an accident that results in injury?

Even industrial or workplace accidents are seldom truely accidents, and are actually the results of poor judgement, employer budget cuts, improper training, and poor maint etc. Should a worker who fails to properly lock out a piece of equipment that results in an injury be facing criminal charges?

Can we look to prosecute everyone who is responsible for someone elses injury? Where would intent come into play? Should it be illegal to make bad decisions?

I am sure in your line of work that you see the results of all kinds of poor decisions in everything from driving intoxicated, to drug abuse, and all the less considered problems like not paying attention while doing almost anything while talking on a cell phone or using poor judgement in almost anything.

How about all the problems we see that are honestly an extention of many families having two working parents, and little time to raise their children like they may like. Things like getting into all kinds of trouble on a atv, computer, or whatever else that is used a some sort of baby sitter.

I guess we could discuss or debate all kinds of angles to find our way to an agreeble course of action, but I am not sure it would ever find full closure.

Now I am not saying this 16 yr old is without blame, and there is a need to show how serious his poor decision was and help avoid it from happening etc, but this is just a child as well, and exactly what would be gained from making him a criminal?

This problem may seem to continue to go in a circle, but I do believe there is a way to handle things (not that I have a complete answer to it) that will allow it a place to stop and for things to get back to normal.

Just where it became acceptable to claim ignorance for ones actions I dont know, but somehow someware when we were not looking this not only happened, but became the the rule where everyone is able to blame a product, design, or whatever else they and their attorney could find for their mistake and poor judgement. When this started I dont know, but just look at the countless disclaimers on every product we may purchase that advise us not to do something stupid, and I mean blantantly stupid.

Sorry but if we are to make people like those described earlier responsible for injuries that others received while riding on an ATV that they decided to ride openly themselves then we also have to make those who purchase a chainsaw and then decide to test its sharpness by applying it to their hand or whatever other stupid thing they do responsible for their actions as well.

It could be that we all have become so conditioned by all the lack of responsibility in our time that were not even sure what or who is responsible for what in the first place.

Maybe we need to get back to basics and start over from the begining and put blame where it belongs, and I mean really belongs, and not look to the govt to make our decisions for us, and teach ourselves and our children to accept responsiblility for our decisions and actions, and then maybe then people will make better decisions, and when they dont they will not hide from them by blaming someone else.

Something to think about at least.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Now I am not saying this 16 yr old is without blame, and there is a need to show how serious his poor decision was and help avoid it from happening etc, but this is just a child as well, and exactly what would be gained from making him a criminal?"
440EX026</end quote></div>

Actually, the irresponsible adult "responsible" for the serious injuries suffered by the 6-year-old child, is 19-years-of-age. (Probably just transposed the 6-year-old with the 19-yeard-old.)

The crimes he should be charged with are:

1. Child Endangerment
(For the conscious act of placing an unprotected child on the ATV with him.)

2. Reckless Aggravated Battery
(For recklessly engaging in a activity which resulted in serious injuries to a child.)

3. Felony fleeing the scene of an accident.
(In stead of staying and attempting to aid the injured child, he ran away!)

4. Resisting An Officer
(A somewhat lessor offense resulting from the foot chase.)

As far as charges filed in MVA's, all but the most minor MVA's are investigated by law enforcement. Not for insurance reasons, but for public safety concerns and to determine if charges are applicable in the situation. Insurance and civil concerns are always secondary. Often, charges are brought only after review of the MVA report by a prosecutor, or a Grand Jury.

I agree, we can't have a law titled: "Criminal Stupidity"
But after a year of discusion, and so many tragic examples, where do we draw the line on holding the responsible adult "responsible" for the outcome of these events?

When an adult is responsible for the preventable serious injury or death of a child, he or she should be held accountable. I really feel it's that simple.