I have thought about this for a long time, and I am beginning to agree with you Mike. The only way that we are going to get parents to wake up and shoulder the responsibility is for there to be consequences.

I do not think that locking a peron up for a year when judges in this country are letting two and sometimes many more time DUI offenders walk out of the courtroom with no more consequence than paying a fine... but there has to be some formal way the court system can get their attention. Maybe if Mom and dad had a few nights behind bars they would come to the realization that this isn't a game any more.

I believe we are seeing a new williness on the part of law enforcement to apply existing child endangerment/neglect etc laws to get their attention. Much has to do with attitude of the parents I suspect. My only concern as I have stated before is that the legal system will single out ATV families, while ignoring other just as dangerous sports participants.

Also it must be noted that even though some parents are practicing Due dilligence, their child can still be involved in a serious accident, and injury or even death may still occur. In those cases, I would hope that the courts could recognise that effort.

Hopefully, the future case law will be able to distinguish the difference and be applied with this in mind. Otherwise you have to ask where it will stop. If taken to the extreme, you might see parents getting pulled into court every time the kid skins his knee.

The key here I think is the actions taken to ensure the kid has as safe of an environment as can be made. Whether that is wearing necessary equipment, receiving proper training, following trail rules, and yes perhaps the State may have a piece in this, by building safer trails. Ones that not only provide a little more margin of error, but also are more environmentally sensative.

You asked about my proposal to make the machines wider. First you have to admit that racers everywhere are making them wider for one reason. Stability. Why can't we expect that from the factory?

The real issue is that when the CPSC guidelines were drafted, the machines were grossly underpowered compared to what we have available today. They need to be updated.

I am not a scientist, but it doesn't take a bright lite bulb to see that Wider stance and lower center of gravity is going to add a significant safety margin. The proof is out there with the racing gang...

If trail width is the stumbling block, I think that is the easiest part to fix... Besides, you build a trail 50 inches in width today, after a season of riding, I almost can guarantee it will be wider at the end of the season. I don't see this as a stumbling block.

By the way, I know that you are bound by rules to not hawk your wares... But I believe what you are doing is important enough that this web site should voluntarily highlight your product lines, and get the word out so that local EMS crews can have access to these devices. THAT is RESPONSIBLE behavior on the part of this web site in promoting safety. It is that important...

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I have thought about this for a long time, and I am beginning to agree with you Mike. The only way that we are going to get parents to wake up and shoulder the responsibility is for there to be consequences."

"Hopefully, the future case law will be able to distinguish the difference and be applied with this in mind. Otherwise you have to ask where it will stop. If taken to the extreme, you might see parents getting pulled into court every time the kid skins his knee."
DB</end quote></div>

In most communities these safeguards are already in place. I believe you are seeing this in the decision by the prosecutor to not seek a felony charge during her presentation to the grand jury in the case most recently highlighted.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"You asked about my proposal to make the machines wider. First you have to admit that racers everywhere are making them wider for one reason. Stability. Why can't we expect that from the factory?"

"The real issue is that when the CPSC guidelines were drafted, the machines were grossly underpowered compared to what we have available today. They need to be updated."
DB</end quote></div>

Yes. I totally agree the CPSC guidelines are in need of a total overhaul. But, how do we get them to move in that direction?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"By the way, I know that you are bound by rules to not hawk your wares... But I believe what you are doing is important enough that this web site should voluntarily highlight your product lines, and get the word out so that local EMS crews can have access to these devices. THAT is RESPONSIBLE behavior on the part of this web site in promoting safety. It is that important..."
DB</end quote></div>

As I said in my email, I found this product shortly after KDA started teaching ATV Safety & Rescue in Farm Safety courses here in Kentucky. So, two years ago I started trying to get "the word" out about this life saving new product. The first website forum I posted some information on (www.- - - - - -.net)
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> ****Removed voluntarily by this ATV Connection Forum Member**** </end quote></div>got so upset with me for posting something about the ATR they pulled my introductory post, called me a SPAMMER, reported me to some "Internet Policing" organization and threatened me with a law suit if I ever posted anything similar on their website again.

When they pulled my initial post on a thread I started titled "ATV Safety Is My Thing", and closed, plus locked the thread, here's what they posted:

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"New members are encouraged to tell something about themselves and can do so without trying to sell their commerical products. When you post a website for commerical sales (spam) within that thread, that is not allowed (per my PM to you)." www.- - - - - - .net</end quote></div>

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> ****Removed voluntarily by this ATV Connection Forum Member**** </end quote></div>

So, after the NastyGram about a law suit and reporting me to the "Internet Police" -- never again will I ever put information about ATRs on a forum unless requested by the website.

BTW:
The good folks at <div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> ****Removed voluntarily by this ATV Connection Forum Member**** </end quote></div> who do not allow images or links that promote ATV Safety, sent me this PM:

"The classified area is for individuals sellling personal items. We do not allow commerical sales. If you would like to discuss purchasing ad space on the site for commercial sales, please PM Mike or myself.... Thank you"

In other words: "PAY US, OR WE TRASH YOU!"

But, they see nothing wrong with posting pictures of kids with NO PROTECTIVE GEAR, on ATVs, or parents at the controls while the CHILD SITS BETWEEN THEIR LEGS.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> ****Removed voluntarily by this ATV Connection Forum Member**** </end quote></div>

These "Opportunist" are willing to post "ATV Safety Information" ONLY after someone purchases ad space on their site; but NOT before!

What a deal!!!

 

Sorry about the rant. I went on the road shortly after 11:00 AM EST Saturday, and just got in. But the MudBog.net incident flashed in my mind when you equated running an ATV website, and RESPONSIBLE behavior. The two don't necessarily peacefully coexist.

 

Took a look at MudBog, seems to be just one promotional post after another, tires, trailers, engine modifications, boots, gloves, etc. Seems strange you were treated so rudely..........Tass

 

Took a look at MudBog, seems to be just one promotional post after another, tires, trailers, engine modifications, boots, gloves, etc. Seems strange you were treated so rudely..........Tass

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Took a look at MudBog, seems to be just one promotional post after another, tires, trailers, engine modifications, boots, gloves, etc. Seems strange you were treated so rudely.........." Tass </end quote></div>

These "Opportunist" are willing to post "ATV Safety Information" ONLY after someone purchases ad space on their site; but NOT before!


Here's the wesite owner's public profile along with a pic.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>****Link removed voluntarily by this ATV Connection Forum Member****</end quote></div>
You'll recognize the type.

After my initial post was pulled I found his email address on another website and tried to engage him in a conversation about the level of "ATV Safety" found on his website. As in his first PM communication to me, he called me a "Pathetic Little Idiot" and repeated his threats of a law suit and claims of reporting my IP address to some "Internet Policing" organization. Afterwards, action images of the ATR in use were pulled from their photo gallery. Also, the post claiming I was trying to sell commercial products while using their website for commercial sales and spam was posted, as if they were trying to publicly chastise me. That's when it was clear to me that his website was all about "The Money " with no concern for what's happening to the children and young adults being maimed or killed trying to imitate what they see in many of the photos posted on his site.

 

That seems to be prevelent all over the net these days... By the way, there is no INTERNET POLICE. I know this because that is what I do for a living for the Federal Government. We detect, we block, and if there has been significant damage, we prosecute.. but believe me, there is not some super crew interested in Joe Internet user ready to pounce. The most they can do is lock your account for not followint 'Their" rules. Who needs em. There are plenty of other sites. I agree, guys selling ATV's and associated parts and accessories should be paying to advertise. There are are on occasion, exceptions to every "Rule". Especially when you are talking safety items that numerous local emergency crews could use to save lives. Remeber, the life you save with that equipment could be their child. They need to think about that. I believe in some circles they cal it PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS. YOu might try and talk to the new owners of this web site. They used ot be pretty strict.. not sure what the current philosophy is... Either way, I think your stuff is great and every EMT unit located near an ATV riding area, or heck, anywhere hikers, Bikers etc hang out, they could use these. Besides, they highlighted the Nichols trailer at one time too under previous ownership.
By the way, I approached the previous owners about writing a parents column... was flatly refused.

 

our sport is for fun but injuriesare a growing problem, there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement

 

Raiderfan, I appreciate your jumping in and commenting. I have to ask though. Are you familiar with the CPSC guidelines? The reason I ask is two fold... 1) it is important that you and everyone concerned KNOW what they are about, what they say, and how they came about. The other reason 2) is that a lot of us are trying to get them updated, and we could use your help. A couple areas where I think improvements could be made are 1) build a mid range machine for the 12 to 16 crowd that better relates to the style and size of the riders these days. Technology has moved forward since the sules were developed. ALso our kids are bigger too. I am pushing for a larger framed machine about the size of a blaster, and with a 125 engine size limit. This would give the older kids something with a little more power and better fit and keep them off of the bigger full sized machines that they are getting hurt or killed on. 2) I'd like ot see the machines a little wider and with a lower center of gravity. You do those two things and you can greatly improve the safety margins. I am also an advocate for training programs. I'd like ot see continuing education programs as well. As far as licensing of riders... I think the jury is out on that one. Not all states have programs, and that is where this would be enforced. A little Civic lesson may be in order for those that need to brush up on their constitutional law.. but that is where it lies. Not the Federal Government. Lastly, I feel good gear is just as important as the machine itself. If a parent cannot afford the gear, then they should not be buying the machine in the first place period.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
I'd like ot see the machines a little wider and with a lower center of gravity.</end quote></div>


I agree! Its a shame we have to buy a 450 to get a decent, stable chassis.... Or else have to extensively modify a smaller quad to make it stable. The "kids" quads are ridiculous! All it takes is a bit more than a breeze of wind to knock one of those things over! And the 1/4 liters aren't any better... At the least there should be a sticker saying, "This quad is NOT designed to be stable in a turn or on rough surfaces. It is too narrow and the suspension inadequate, but to save money and push riders to spend more, we have severly ill-equiped this quad to be driven in any manner involving turning or any surface other than flat and smooth.". Hey,,, they have stickers saying not to drink or use drugs... I think a drunk adult has a better chance of not wrecking a 450 than a kid would on one of those 90s.