Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Feb 14, 2008 | 09:09 PM
#551
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,227
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: raiderfan76
there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement</end quote></div>
Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!
Following that logic, MacDonalds should be illegal for causing too many people to die too young.
You choose to ride, you choose to take a risk! How you handle the risk is up to you and you only should suffer the consequences.
The next time you see someone riding w/o a helmet or bodywear, just think, "There goes someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"
there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement</end quote></div>
Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!
Following that logic, MacDonalds should be illegal for causing too many people to die too young.
You choose to ride, you choose to take a risk! How you handle the risk is up to you and you only should suffer the consequences.
The next time you see someone riding w/o a helmet or bodywear, just think, "There goes someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"
Feb 14, 2008 | 09:30 PM
#552
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia, near DC
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
No Randy, I think you are a little off base. I do not disagree with you totally, as I too believe that an INFORMED rider or parent makes a choice... however the sad thing is that in MANY cases... too many... parents will see a bargain brand on the corner, at the Costco, or being sold at an AUTO parts store and think that their kids would just love to have one of these. So they buy it thinking it is safe... There is no warnings anywhere, and the sales guy knows little to nothing about the dangers. All they know what to do is put gas in it, and it runs... THAT is the problem that we face. These cut rate machines being sold do not subscribe to any safety organizations, they put nothing back into the sport etc. They just take your money, and in some cases, your child from you. No, I think the key is INFORMATION. How a parent gets it is difficult. Laws are one thing. They at least will place the onus on the parent to look for the information. There is no easy answer. Always blaming the parents is easy in hindsight.. but the issue is far more complex than that.
Feb 14, 2008 | 09:38 PM
#553
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,227
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
How am I off base??? Sorry,,, I'm confused. I said the quads need to be wider and more stable or have stickers that say they are death traps. What's off base about that? Thanks.
Feb 16, 2008 | 04:15 PM
#554
Range Rover
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!
Following that logic, MacDonalds should be illegal for causing too many people to die too young.
You choose to ride, you choose to take a risk! How you handle the risk is up to you and you only should suffer the consequences.
The next time you see someone riding w/o a helmet or bodywear, just think, "There goes someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"
JustRandy</end quote></div>
I believe what DB means is that the source of the problem is far deeper than a personal rights issue.
1.
Laws already on the books are just beginning to be enforced after the ATV accident occurs.
2.
In areas of stepped up enforcement we are seeing the "Responsible Adult" being held accountable for his/her actions or inaction.
3.
Did the 2-1/2 year-old child who recently died make a conscious choice to take the risk? The boy was riding between the legs of an adult when the ATV did a back flip crushing his chest. Was he just "Someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"?
Or, was he the victim of a preventable crime titled "Negligent Homicide?"
Nothing will stop ALL serious injuries or deaths in an activity possessing the risk factors of ATV operation.
However, there are some things that can be done to reduce "PREVENTABLE DEATHS" like the one described above. As these acount for about 30% of all ATV accident fatalities each year, at this point I believe it's a good place for us to start. Given the latest figures of 870 ATV related fatalities in 2005, if we were successful in eliminating preventable deaths, that would save 261 young lives a year.
Following that logic, MacDonalds should be illegal for causing too many people to die too young.
You choose to ride, you choose to take a risk! How you handle the risk is up to you and you only should suffer the consequences.
The next time you see someone riding w/o a helmet or bodywear, just think, "There goes someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"
JustRandy</end quote></div>
I believe what DB means is that the source of the problem is far deeper than a personal rights issue.
1.
Laws already on the books are just beginning to be enforced after the ATV accident occurs.
2.
In areas of stepped up enforcement we are seeing the "Responsible Adult" being held accountable for his/her actions or inaction.
3.
Did the 2-1/2 year-old child who recently died make a conscious choice to take the risk? The boy was riding between the legs of an adult when the ATV did a back flip crushing his chest. Was he just "Someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"?
Or, was he the victim of a preventable crime titled "Negligent Homicide?"
Nothing will stop ALL serious injuries or deaths in an activity possessing the risk factors of ATV operation.
However, there are some things that can be done to reduce "PREVENTABLE DEATHS" like the one described above. As these acount for about 30% of all ATV accident fatalities each year, at this point I believe it's a good place for us to start. Given the latest figures of 870 ATV related fatalities in 2005, if we were successful in eliminating preventable deaths, that would save 261 young lives a year.
Feb 16, 2008 | 06:07 PM
#555
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: LaGrande Oregon
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
As a general concept laws and rules are to control individuals that can be controlled and to provide the illusion of care for those that cannot care for themselves. There are enough laws, regulations and rules on the books now to cover any situation and any circumstance within those situations. And there is almost no enforcement and little compliance. New rules, new regulations, new mandates or new restrictions will only be of value to those that find comfort and protection in words. If there is little use of what there is, more of the same will make no difference............Tass
Feb 16, 2008 | 07:03 PM
#556
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,227
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
I believe what DB means is that the source of the problem is far deeper than a personal rights issue.
3.
Did the 2-1/2 year-old child who recently died make a conscious choice to take the risk? The boy was riding between the legs of an adult when the ATV did a back flip crushing his chest. Was he just "Someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"? </end quote></div>
That's not adding up for me... How can a 2.5 yr old make any choices? They have very few rights under law anyway. 2.5 yr olds are little more than possessions that the state holds the parent responsible for. But I guess what you're getting at is you feel I should be made to wear a helmet and not allowed to ride my friends on the back of my quad (or whatever other impositions you have for me) because some 2.5yr old kid somewhere in the world was killed by a,,, well, let's just say someone who didn't calculate risks properly in the eyes of popular society??? Umm... How is that helping again? Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids (especially in some far away spot in the universe as far as I know)? If one of my kids or my friend's kids die in a car wreck... you gonna come to the funeral? No! Certainly not! Why should you care? Furthermore, should I make some ridiculous law that says you can't drive a car with kids on board on the weekend because there are too many drunks on the road? Because my kid was killed by a drunk on the weekend??? Its the same thing! Somebody, somewhere in the world is an idiot; therefore, I have to be treated like an idiot too for my own protection? Let's get our priorities straight... Freedom first, security second! Freedom is worth dying for... Many have and many more yet will.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Or, was he the victim of a preventable crime titled "Negligent Homicide?"
Nothing will stop ALL serious injuries or deaths in an activity possessing the risk factors of ATV operation.
However, there are some things that can be done to reduce "PREVENTABLE DEATHS" like the one described above. As these acount for about 30% of all ATV accident fatalities each year, at this point I believe it's a good place for us to start. Given the latest figures of 870 ATV related fatalities in 2005, if we were successful in eliminating preventable deaths, that would save 261 young lives a year. </end quote></div>
261 lives a yr!!!!! That's HOW many % of the population??? And I'm supposed to give up my freedoms for a mere SHOT at saving 261 lives??? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] How many people die of alcohol related deaths each DAY??? Why don't we ban drinking again??? Next we'll get MacDonalds. Too many people die from eating fatty foods. Might as well pass a law requiring everyone to wear a diaper when drinking a hot beverage too. It would be a shame to have more burnt genitals. Why don't we just be done with it and just tie everyone to a table for their own protection? Nobody will die then because machines will keep them alive forever! Sounds like a fun place to live. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know? I could get shot in the head by a mugger for my wallet and you could argue it was preventable if I had been tied to that table like I should have been. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
I believe what DB means is that the source of the problem is far deeper than a personal rights issue.
3.
Did the 2-1/2 year-old child who recently died make a conscious choice to take the risk? The boy was riding between the legs of an adult when the ATV did a back flip crushing his chest. Was he just "Someone exercising his/her right to manage his/her own life.... An American!"? </end quote></div>
That's not adding up for me... How can a 2.5 yr old make any choices? They have very few rights under law anyway. 2.5 yr olds are little more than possessions that the state holds the parent responsible for. But I guess what you're getting at is you feel I should be made to wear a helmet and not allowed to ride my friends on the back of my quad (or whatever other impositions you have for me) because some 2.5yr old kid somewhere in the world was killed by a,,, well, let's just say someone who didn't calculate risks properly in the eyes of popular society??? Umm... How is that helping again? Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids (especially in some far away spot in the universe as far as I know)? If one of my kids or my friend's kids die in a car wreck... you gonna come to the funeral? No! Certainly not! Why should you care? Furthermore, should I make some ridiculous law that says you can't drive a car with kids on board on the weekend because there are too many drunks on the road? Because my kid was killed by a drunk on the weekend??? Its the same thing! Somebody, somewhere in the world is an idiot; therefore, I have to be treated like an idiot too for my own protection? Let's get our priorities straight... Freedom first, security second! Freedom is worth dying for... Many have and many more yet will.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Or, was he the victim of a preventable crime titled "Negligent Homicide?"
Nothing will stop ALL serious injuries or deaths in an activity possessing the risk factors of ATV operation.
However, there are some things that can be done to reduce "PREVENTABLE DEATHS" like the one described above. As these acount for about 30% of all ATV accident fatalities each year, at this point I believe it's a good place for us to start. Given the latest figures of 870 ATV related fatalities in 2005, if we were successful in eliminating preventable deaths, that would save 261 young lives a year. </end quote></div>
261 lives a yr!!!!! That's HOW many % of the population??? And I'm supposed to give up my freedoms for a mere SHOT at saving 261 lives??? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] How many people die of alcohol related deaths each DAY??? Why don't we ban drinking again??? Next we'll get MacDonalds. Too many people die from eating fatty foods. Might as well pass a law requiring everyone to wear a diaper when drinking a hot beverage too. It would be a shame to have more burnt genitals. Why don't we just be done with it and just tie everyone to a table for their own protection? Nobody will die then because machines will keep them alive forever! Sounds like a fun place to live. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know? I could get shot in the head by a mugger for my wallet and you could argue it was preventable if I had been tied to that table like I should have been. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
Feb 16, 2008 | 09:39 PM
#557
Range Rover
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "That's not adding up for me... How can a 2.5 yr old make any choices?"
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Obviously, you don't recognize a rhetorical question when presented with one. As such, I'll refrain from this figure of speech.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids (especially in some far away spot in the universe as far as I know)?
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Are these "FIVE PREVENTABLE DEATHS" of children between the ages of 10 and 14 on an ATV close enough for you to care?
Georgia ATV Accident Driver Faces 5 Homicide Charges
Ambrose, GA
A woman whose car rammed into an all-terrain vehicle near Ambrose, Georgia, laden with six young people, was charged with five counts of homicide, as the community grieved for the five children who died. Authorities say the automobile driver, crossed the center line about 9 PM Saturday evening before hitting a 4-wheeler, carrying 6 children, but designed to carry one adult operator and no passengers.
Besides the five homicide charges, the driver was also charged with DUI, reckless driving and driving on the wrong side of the road.
At the time of the collision, the adult sized ATV was being driven by a teenager celebrating her 14th birthday. She had been taking her five friends for a ride on the family ATV when the accident occurred.
Killed, along with the 14-year-old ATV driver, were: an 11-year-old boy and his 13-year-old sister, an unrelated 13-year-old girl; and an unrelated 10-year-old girl. A sixth young person, a 13-year-old girl, was in critical condition as of this report.
The driver of the car that struck the ATV and her two passengers were not seriously injured; although she was transported to a local hospital for treatment. Upon release from the hospital, the driver was taken into custody and lodged in the county jail.
A spokesman for the Georgia Department of Public Safety stated: "This off-road vehicle was built for one adult rider. Additionally, none of the youngsters was wearing a helmet and the 14-year-old girl should not have been driving the vehicle at all; much less on a public road."
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> 261 lives a yr!!!!! That's HOW many % of the population??? And I'm supposed to give up my freedoms for a mere SHOT at saving 261 lives???
JustRandy </end quote></div>
I understand you have no concerns for the death of a child not your own (see quote above), but the 261 lives cut short over a period of just ONE YEAR, were sadly ALL under the age of 16. By the way, who's asking you to give up your freedoms?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "Let's get our priorities straight... Freedom first, security second! Freedom is worth dying for... Many have and many more yet will."
JustRandy </end quote></div>
So, in your opinion Randy, children have a right to die in such a hideous manner as described above?
One question: How is the "Freedom of our great County" and this forum topic even remotely linked?
"Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Unfortunately, the rules of this website prohibit me from answering your question directly.
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Obviously, you don't recognize a rhetorical question when presented with one. As such, I'll refrain from this figure of speech.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids (especially in some far away spot in the universe as far as I know)?
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Are these "FIVE PREVENTABLE DEATHS" of children between the ages of 10 and 14 on an ATV close enough for you to care?
Georgia ATV Accident Driver Faces 5 Homicide Charges
Ambrose, GA
A woman whose car rammed into an all-terrain vehicle near Ambrose, Georgia, laden with six young people, was charged with five counts of homicide, as the community grieved for the five children who died. Authorities say the automobile driver, crossed the center line about 9 PM Saturday evening before hitting a 4-wheeler, carrying 6 children, but designed to carry one adult operator and no passengers.
Besides the five homicide charges, the driver was also charged with DUI, reckless driving and driving on the wrong side of the road.
At the time of the collision, the adult sized ATV was being driven by a teenager celebrating her 14th birthday. She had been taking her five friends for a ride on the family ATV when the accident occurred.
Killed, along with the 14-year-old ATV driver, were: an 11-year-old boy and his 13-year-old sister, an unrelated 13-year-old girl; and an unrelated 10-year-old girl. A sixth young person, a 13-year-old girl, was in critical condition as of this report.
The driver of the car that struck the ATV and her two passengers were not seriously injured; although she was transported to a local hospital for treatment. Upon release from the hospital, the driver was taken into custody and lodged in the county jail.
A spokesman for the Georgia Department of Public Safety stated: "This off-road vehicle was built for one adult rider. Additionally, none of the youngsters was wearing a helmet and the 14-year-old girl should not have been driving the vehicle at all; much less on a public road."
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> 261 lives a yr!!!!! That's HOW many % of the population??? And I'm supposed to give up my freedoms for a mere SHOT at saving 261 lives???
JustRandy </end quote></div>
I understand you have no concerns for the death of a child not your own (see quote above), but the 261 lives cut short over a period of just ONE YEAR, were sadly ALL under the age of 16. By the way, who's asking you to give up your freedoms?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "Let's get our priorities straight... Freedom first, security second! Freedom is worth dying for... Many have and many more yet will."
JustRandy </end quote></div>
So, in your opinion Randy, children have a right to die in such a hideous manner as described above?
One question: How is the "Freedom of our great County" and this forum topic even remotely linked?
"Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Unfortunately, the rules of this website prohibit me from answering your question directly.
Feb 17, 2008 | 02:33 AM
#558
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,227
Likes: 0
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Obviously, you don't recognize a rhetorical question when presented with one. As such, I'll refrain from this figure of speech.</end quote></div>
Am I expected to? (<--- Is that a rhetorical question?). Only I know the answer. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Are these "FIVE PREVENTABLE DEATHS" of children between the ages of 10 and 14 on an ATV close enough for you to care?</end quote></div>
Is that rhetorical too??? Nevermind, I'll answer it anyway. Ummm... No.
Its a tragic and very horrible thing for those involved, but I'm not involved. If I involved myself in every little mishap in the world I would be a basket case strung out on antidepressants.
What about all the deaths of due to alcohol? I don't see any reply to my comment about alcohol. Don't you mourn for these people who VASTLY outnumber any ATV accident? Shouldn't you be after a bigger piece of the pie? Why are you harping about 5 people here GA? They are no closer to me than someone living on the moon. After all, I never heard about it until I read about it here.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Georgia ATV Accident Driver Faces 5 Homicide Charges
Ambrose, GA
A woman whose car rammed into an all-terrain vehicle near Ambrose, Georgia, laden with six young people, was charged with five counts of homicide, as the community grieved for the five children who died. Authorities say the automobile driver, crossed the center line about 9 PM Saturday evening before hitting a 4-wheeler, carrying 6 children, but designed to carry one adult operator and no passengers.
Besides the five homicide charges, the driver was also charged with DUI, reckless driving and driving on the wrong side of the road.
At the time of the collision, the adult sized ATV was being driven by a teenager celebrating her 14th birthday. She had been taking her five friends for a ride on the family ATV when the accident occurred.
Killed, along with the 14-year-old ATV driver, were: an 11-year-old boy and his 13-year-old sister, an unrelated 13-year-old girl; and an unrelated 10-year-old girl. A sixth young person, a 13-year-old girl, was in critical condition as of this report.
The driver of the car that struck the ATV and her two passengers were not seriously injured; although she was transported to a local hospital for treatment. Upon release from the hospital, the driver was taken into custody and lodged in the county jail.
A spokesman for the Georgia Department of Public Safety stated: "This off-road vehicle was built for one adult rider. Additionally, none of the youngsters was wearing a helmet and the 14-year-old girl should not have been driving the vehicle at all; much less on a public road." </end quote></div>
So,,, what do you want me to say??? It was the driver of the ATV at fault? Because there were too many people on the quad, the gravitational forces of all that mass must have pulled the car across the centerline and right into them. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] Oh, and I'm sure helmets would have saved everyone of them from getting run over. As a matter of fact, they could have been just walking down the road in a tight grouping and have been hit in the same way with the same outcome. What does this have to do with ATV safety???
I'm not saying ATV's should be on the road. I'm not recommending people ride with 6 people on their quads. I'm not suggesting you're better off w/o a helmet. I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
I understand you have no concerns for the death of a child not your own (see quote above), but the 261 lives cut short over a period of just ONE YEAR, were sadly ALL under the age of 16. </end quote></div>
Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else? Its a shameful and tragic thing to be mangled in an accident. I hope I never have to endure seeing anyone in such an ordeal. I can barely deal with an animal that has been hit by a car in front of the house,,, nevermind a person. I wish everyone could just ride safely and freely and it be a perfect world. But, sadly, that's not the case.
I wish people didn't have to go to war and take shrapnel and bullets and lose limbs and lives for the sake of freedom. How many lives are being lost in Iraq in a yr? What are they fighting for? Granted, they are a little older than 16...
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
By the way, who's asking you to give up your freedoms? </end quote></div>
Well,,, raiderfan76 said, "there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement". To which I replied, "Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!" And you quoted me and started on about preventable deaths and such. So, I concluded you are in favor of requiring me to wear a helmet by law. Therefore, YOU are taking my freedoms by being a member of the voting public and having that mindset. Am I wrong?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
So, in your opinion Randy, children have a right to die in such a hideous manner as described above? </end quote></div>
Having the right to do anything is a matter of law. Since someone is being charged with homicide, I gather they did not have the right to die like that. My opinion has nothing to do with it. However, I did not want them to die. I wanted them to carry on having fun and celebrating a birthday. But if you're asking me to strap a helmet on everytime I ride across the yard because some goofy woman can't drive a car... my reply would REALLY be something to violate forum rules!
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
One question: How is the "Freedom of our great County" and this forum topic even remotely linked?
"Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?" </end quote></div>
Its always good to stay on topic! Freedom and safety go hand-in-hand (read my siggy). Anytime anyone starts carrying on about being "safe", I can be alarmed that my liberties are in peril! And there's always some "pest" crawling out of the crevices of the net crying about defending our liberties and freedom to be as "stupid" (they say) as we want, so long as we don't hurt anyone else. This thread is no different.
Actually, the thread should be titled, "What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries w/o restricting personal liberties?"
Make ATVs safer. That works. It doesn't restrict any of my liberites.
Take money off the price of a quad for a training course. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Open up a privately funded ATV training school and make deals with neighborhood business to give incentives to riders to take the class. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Maybe even hand out $5 to every rider you see with a helmet. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
On the other hand, requiring helmets might save a life or two here n there, but the guys that have the accidents don't pay much attention to rules anyway... Obviously. Same with riding double, triple, etc. The party of 6 was breaking the law several times over and still got killed. So, what good was the law?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Unfortunately, the rules of this website prohibit me from answering your question directly. </end quote></div>
Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Now,,, I've answered every question I can find in your reply. Why won't you answer more of mine? Why do you just pick n choose which statements to reply to? I want to know why you've singled out ATV's when there are clearly more people dying from other things in the world and ATVs remain relatively insignificant. The reason is not to lead us off topic because my argument is weak, its because once I establish a greater evil with less legal restrictions, the helmet law argument won't hold water. Smoking is legal and kills MANY more people. Alcohol is legal and kills MANY more people. ATVs hardly kill anyone. And aside from you, I haven't heard of a single death since the 80's when trikes were always on the news. And aside from this website, I don't know a single soul that wears a helmet or even hesitates to ride double. And when I talk to them about it, they don't understand why anyone would care if they wear a helmet or not. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] ... And that's the way I feel too. Call me stupid, I don't care, but I'm defending my right to be "stupid". Was Evil Knievel stupid? He may have worn a helmet, but consider the risks he took. And the crowd cheered him on for yrs and yrs. How about Matt Coulter, the Kangaroo Kid? Is he stupid too? The crowd sure does love stupid then. It seems the more risks you take, the bigger the crowd gets and the more they want to wear a t-shirt with the "idiot's" name on it. Look how big NASCAR has become. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] People actually can't wait to see an accident. Its almost like the Roman coliseum in modern times. Safety??? What safety? People don't want safety, they want thrills,,, and thrills don't come from a feeling of security. If they wanted to see safety, ping pong would be the most popular sport on TV instead of NASCAR and football.
Obviously, you don't recognize a rhetorical question when presented with one. As such, I'll refrain from this figure of speech.</end quote></div>
Am I expected to? (<--- Is that a rhetorical question?). Only I know the answer. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Are these "FIVE PREVENTABLE DEATHS" of children between the ages of 10 and 14 on an ATV close enough for you to care?</end quote></div>
Is that rhetorical too??? Nevermind, I'll answer it anyway. Ummm... No.
Its a tragic and very horrible thing for those involved, but I'm not involved. If I involved myself in every little mishap in the world I would be a basket case strung out on antidepressants.
What about all the deaths of due to alcohol? I don't see any reply to my comment about alcohol. Don't you mourn for these people who VASTLY outnumber any ATV accident? Shouldn't you be after a bigger piece of the pie? Why are you harping about 5 people here GA? They are no closer to me than someone living on the moon. After all, I never heard about it until I read about it here.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
Georgia ATV Accident Driver Faces 5 Homicide Charges
Ambrose, GA
A woman whose car rammed into an all-terrain vehicle near Ambrose, Georgia, laden with six young people, was charged with five counts of homicide, as the community grieved for the five children who died. Authorities say the automobile driver, crossed the center line about 9 PM Saturday evening before hitting a 4-wheeler, carrying 6 children, but designed to carry one adult operator and no passengers.
Besides the five homicide charges, the driver was also charged with DUI, reckless driving and driving on the wrong side of the road.
At the time of the collision, the adult sized ATV was being driven by a teenager celebrating her 14th birthday. She had been taking her five friends for a ride on the family ATV when the accident occurred.
Killed, along with the 14-year-old ATV driver, were: an 11-year-old boy and his 13-year-old sister, an unrelated 13-year-old girl; and an unrelated 10-year-old girl. A sixth young person, a 13-year-old girl, was in critical condition as of this report.
The driver of the car that struck the ATV and her two passengers were not seriously injured; although she was transported to a local hospital for treatment. Upon release from the hospital, the driver was taken into custody and lodged in the county jail.
A spokesman for the Georgia Department of Public Safety stated: "This off-road vehicle was built for one adult rider. Additionally, none of the youngsters was wearing a helmet and the 14-year-old girl should not have been driving the vehicle at all; much less on a public road." </end quote></div>
So,,, what do you want me to say??? It was the driver of the ATV at fault? Because there were too many people on the quad, the gravitational forces of all that mass must have pulled the car across the centerline and right into them. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] Oh, and I'm sure helmets would have saved everyone of them from getting run over. As a matter of fact, they could have been just walking down the road in a tight grouping and have been hit in the same way with the same outcome. What does this have to do with ATV safety???
I'm not saying ATV's should be on the road. I'm not recommending people ride with 6 people on their quads. I'm not suggesting you're better off w/o a helmet. I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
I understand you have no concerns for the death of a child not your own (see quote above), but the 261 lives cut short over a period of just ONE YEAR, were sadly ALL under the age of 16. </end quote></div>
Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else? Its a shameful and tragic thing to be mangled in an accident. I hope I never have to endure seeing anyone in such an ordeal. I can barely deal with an animal that has been hit by a car in front of the house,,, nevermind a person. I wish everyone could just ride safely and freely and it be a perfect world. But, sadly, that's not the case.
I wish people didn't have to go to war and take shrapnel and bullets and lose limbs and lives for the sake of freedom. How many lives are being lost in Iraq in a yr? What are they fighting for? Granted, they are a little older than 16...
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
By the way, who's asking you to give up your freedoms? </end quote></div>
Well,,, raiderfan76 said, "there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement". To which I replied, "Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!" And you quoted me and started on about preventable deaths and such. So, I concluded you are in favor of requiring me to wear a helmet by law. Therefore, YOU are taking my freedoms by being a member of the voting public and having that mindset. Am I wrong?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
So, in your opinion Randy, children have a right to die in such a hideous manner as described above? </end quote></div>
Having the right to do anything is a matter of law. Since someone is being charged with homicide, I gather they did not have the right to die like that. My opinion has nothing to do with it. However, I did not want them to die. I wanted them to carry on having fun and celebrating a birthday. But if you're asking me to strap a helmet on everytime I ride across the yard because some goofy woman can't drive a car... my reply would REALLY be something to violate forum rules!
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
One question: How is the "Freedom of our great County" and this forum topic even remotely linked?
"Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?" </end quote></div>
Its always good to stay on topic! Freedom and safety go hand-in-hand (read my siggy). Anytime anyone starts carrying on about being "safe", I can be alarmed that my liberties are in peril! And there's always some "pest" crawling out of the crevices of the net crying about defending our liberties and freedom to be as "stupid" (they say) as we want, so long as we don't hurt anyone else. This thread is no different.
Actually, the thread should be titled, "What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries w/o restricting personal liberties?"
Make ATVs safer. That works. It doesn't restrict any of my liberites.
Take money off the price of a quad for a training course. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Open up a privately funded ATV training school and make deals with neighborhood business to give incentives to riders to take the class. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Maybe even hand out $5 to every rider you see with a helmet. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
On the other hand, requiring helmets might save a life or two here n there, but the guys that have the accidents don't pay much attention to rules anyway... Obviously. Same with riding double, triple, etc. The party of 6 was breaking the law several times over and still got killed. So, what good was the law?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> "PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
JustRandy </end quote></div>
Unfortunately, the rules of this website prohibit me from answering your question directly. </end quote></div>
Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Now,,, I've answered every question I can find in your reply. Why won't you answer more of mine? Why do you just pick n choose which statements to reply to? I want to know why you've singled out ATV's when there are clearly more people dying from other things in the world and ATVs remain relatively insignificant. The reason is not to lead us off topic because my argument is weak, its because once I establish a greater evil with less legal restrictions, the helmet law argument won't hold water. Smoking is legal and kills MANY more people. Alcohol is legal and kills MANY more people. ATVs hardly kill anyone. And aside from you, I haven't heard of a single death since the 80's when trikes were always on the news. And aside from this website, I don't know a single soul that wears a helmet or even hesitates to ride double. And when I talk to them about it, they don't understand why anyone would care if they wear a helmet or not. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] ... And that's the way I feel too. Call me stupid, I don't care, but I'm defending my right to be "stupid". Was Evil Knievel stupid? He may have worn a helmet, but consider the risks he took. And the crowd cheered him on for yrs and yrs. How about Matt Coulter, the Kangaroo Kid? Is he stupid too? The crowd sure does love stupid then. It seems the more risks you take, the bigger the crowd gets and the more they want to wear a t-shirt with the "idiot's" name on it. Look how big NASCAR has become. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] People actually can't wait to see an accident. Its almost like the Roman coliseum in modern times. Safety??? What safety? People don't want safety, they want thrills,,, and thrills don't come from a feeling of security. If they wanted to see safety, ping pong would be the most popular sport on TV instead of NASCAR and football.
Feb 17, 2008 | 08:39 AM
#559
Range Rover
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Randy, you need to read more than the highlighted text.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM NOT NOW, NOR HAVE I EVER PROMOTED THE IDEA OF MORE LAWS."
EEResQ 02/17/2008 07:39 AM </end quote></div>
However, I do strongly support enforcement of EXISTING laws as they apply to reckless and/or negligent operation of ATVs.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else?JustRandy</end quote></div>
Here's where:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids"
JustRandy 02/16/2008 06:03 PM
"JustRandy's post from 02/16/2008 06:03 PM"</end quote></div>
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
"Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Now, I'll leave you to reconsider the remainder of your most recent post.
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Randy, you need to read more than the highlighted text.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM NOT NOW, NOR HAVE I EVER PROMOTED THE IDEA OF MORE LAWS."
EEResQ 02/17/2008 07:39 AM </end quote></div>
However, I do strongly support enforcement of EXISTING laws as they apply to reckless and/or negligent operation of ATVs.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else?JustRandy</end quote></div>
Here's where:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids"
JustRandy 02/16/2008 06:03 PM
"JustRandy's post from 02/16/2008 06:03 PM"</end quote></div>
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
"Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Now, I'll leave you to reconsider the remainder of your most recent post.
Feb 17, 2008 | 03:29 PM
#560
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,227
Likes: 0
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Randy, you need to read more than the highlighted text. </end quote></div>
Mike (I presume?),,, I did. Several times. What are you getting at?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM NOT NOW, NOR HAVE I EVER PROMOTED THE IDEA OF MORE LAWS."
EEResQ 02/17/2008 07:39 AM </end quote></div> </end quote></div>
When did you say this??? You're quoting your current message??? Anyway, since you are not promoting the idea of new laws, what exactly are you promoting?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
However, I do strongly support enforcement of EXISTING laws as they apply to reckless and/or negligent operation of ATVs. </end quote></div>
Sounds ok to me as long as they aren't ridiculous laws that take away my freedom to have fun because someone is affaid I'll hurt myself.
Staying off the road is a fair idea. ATVs are not designed for highway use. However, I do feel I could spend the rest of my life riding up n down the road and not ever be in an incident other than a run in with the police. But I can see the logic to the law nonetheless. And I can really live without a bunch of banshees draggin up n down the road in front of my house.
As far as I know, its legal to let your 13 yr old drive the car around the yard. Although I've never looked into it for sure.... People do it anyway. And it sounds like a reasonable thing to do, so long as they stay off public areas like roads and such. Since someone under 16 isn't allowed to drive a car on public areas, it stands to reason that they shouldn't be allowed to drive an ATV on public areas. But I'm not sure that is a law I want. Many of my friends have kids in the 12-13 range and they ride 150-250cc quads on the mountain trails and do quite well. Of course they are always supervised and I guarantee you their parents love them more than the state ever could. Honestly,,, I'm not sure what sort of legislation should be on the books concerning kids. I have to think about it some more. And we should discuss it more.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else?JustRandy</end quote></div>
Here's where:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids"
JustRandy 02/16/2008 06:03 PM
"JustRandy's post from 02/16/2008 06:03 PM"</end quote></div> </end quote></div>
Umm... That's a question. Not a statement. You're twisting my comments to make it sound like I wish harm to kids in an effort to make me out to be some sort of monster. But in reality, you nor anyone else on this board will shed a tear if any of my kids or my friend's kids end up hurt. What did you do for the funeral of the 6 kids in Ambrose??? Probably the same thing I did for them.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
"Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Now, I'll leave you to reconsider the remainder of your most recent post. </end quote></div>
What's that supposed to mean? Furthermore, you're picking and choosing still. You still won't address many of my points. This leaves me with little option than to believe you are just like a stereotypical politician who panders for public support by spinning and dodging questions... whom has his own interests in mind and not those of the public at large. I don't know what else to make of it... I'm still not even clear where you stand and many issues...
"Edited: 02/17/2008 at 11:16 AM by ATV Connection Moderator" <--- Can't you make your point without breaking rules? The best I can figure,,, you either posted something copyrighted or you're using this webspace to promote your business. And in either of those cases, I can't figure out how my death would be of any concern to you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
PS. Here's another tree for you to start barking up. "8 dead in illegal drag race in Maryland" http://www.latimes.com/news/na...7feb17,0,6561937.story
Just think how tragic it would have been if all those spectators had been sitting on ATVs instead of just standing around. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
According to that article, 100 people die every year just in California alone! The nationwide figure has got to be up in the 1000's. And that's just illegal street racing.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Randy, you need to read more than the highlighted text. </end quote></div>
Mike (I presume?),,, I did. Several times. What are you getting at?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I AM NOT NOW, NOR HAVE I EVER PROMOTED THE IDEA OF MORE LAWS."
EEResQ 02/17/2008 07:39 AM </end quote></div> </end quote></div>
When did you say this??? You're quoting your current message??? Anyway, since you are not promoting the idea of new laws, what exactly are you promoting?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
However, I do strongly support enforcement of EXISTING laws as they apply to reckless and/or negligent operation of ATVs. </end quote></div>
Sounds ok to me as long as they aren't ridiculous laws that take away my freedom to have fun because someone is affaid I'll hurt myself.
Staying off the road is a fair idea. ATVs are not designed for highway use. However, I do feel I could spend the rest of my life riding up n down the road and not ever be in an incident other than a run in with the police. But I can see the logic to the law nonetheless. And I can really live without a bunch of banshees draggin up n down the road in front of my house.
As far as I know, its legal to let your 13 yr old drive the car around the yard. Although I've never looked into it for sure.... People do it anyway. And it sounds like a reasonable thing to do, so long as they stay off public areas like roads and such. Since someone under 16 isn't allowed to drive a car on public areas, it stands to reason that they shouldn't be allowed to drive an ATV on public areas. But I'm not sure that is a law I want. Many of my friends have kids in the 12-13 range and they ride 150-250cc quads on the mountain trails and do quite well. Of course they are always supervised and I guarantee you their parents love them more than the state ever could. Honestly,,, I'm not sure what sort of legislation should be on the books concerning kids. I have to think about it some more. And we should discuss it more.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else?JustRandy</end quote></div>
Here's where:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Why should I care what happens to someone else's kids"
JustRandy 02/16/2008 06:03 PM
"JustRandy's post from 02/16/2008 06:03 PM"</end quote></div> </end quote></div>
Umm... That's a question. Not a statement. You're twisting my comments to make it sound like I wish harm to kids in an effort to make me out to be some sort of monster. But in reality, you nor anyone else on this board will shed a tear if any of my kids or my friend's kids end up hurt. What did you do for the funeral of the 6 kids in Ambrose??? Probably the same thing I did for them.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"PREVENTABLE DEATHS.... What business is it of yours if I die tomorrow? Or Joe Smoe whom you don't know?"
"Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel."
JustRandy</end quote></div>
Now, I'll leave you to reconsider the remainder of your most recent post. </end quote></div>
What's that supposed to mean? Furthermore, you're picking and choosing still. You still won't address many of my points. This leaves me with little option than to believe you are just like a stereotypical politician who panders for public support by spinning and dodging questions... whom has his own interests in mind and not those of the public at large. I don't know what else to make of it... I'm still not even clear where you stand and many issues...
"Edited: 02/17/2008 at 11:16 AM by ATV Connection Moderator" <--- Can't you make your point without breaking rules? The best I can figure,,, you either posted something copyrighted or you're using this webspace to promote your business. And in either of those cases, I can't figure out how my death would be of any concern to you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
PS. Here's another tree for you to start barking up. "8 dead in illegal drag race in Maryland" http://www.latimes.com/news/na...7feb17,0,6561937.story
Just think how tragic it would have been if all those spectators had been sitting on ATVs instead of just standing around. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
According to that article, 100 people die every year just in California alone! The nationwide figure has got to be up in the 1000's. And that's just illegal street racing.