YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
#51
07-04-2007 | 05:30 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Motorsports
So it sounds it is ok with the ORV leaders in MI that the USFS is closing National Forest lands to ALL MOTORIZED USE??
Does this sound ok to you?</end quote></div>
What he's saying is that it was more important for them to work on tripling the training percentages taken out of the sticker fund and into these non-profit's pockets....that it was much more important to waste time on fruitlessly finding a big city Detroit area riding area.... and that it was more important to ride the sides of lower peninsula roads than to throw every resource we had at working together with the USFS and among all the groups to save the access to these forests.
Throw in the fact that these so-called 'leaders' wasted even more of our resources during this same time trying to add yet even more mileage to a system that has been absolutely maintained like crap for years (causing many of us to leave the state in search of decent riding opportunity).....one in which the concept of 60" trails (with the privitized maintenance opportunities that could have followed) was quickly killed for purely greedy reasoning..and I think that you get my point.
These aren't personal attacks...they are facts that will surely get me kicked off of this forum and attacked myself for simply presenting them as such.
By the way....does anybody now care to talk about the two Michigan orv advisory board so-called 'leaders' presently working on long-expired terms and why these two individuals have been quietly and bogusly kept in power when nobody else in the history of this sport has been given the same opportunity to continually wield this type of influence?
So it sounds it is ok with the ORV leaders in MI that the USFS is closing National Forest lands to ALL MOTORIZED USE??
Does this sound ok to you?</end quote></div>
What he's saying is that it was more important for them to work on tripling the training percentages taken out of the sticker fund and into these non-profit's pockets....that it was much more important to waste time on fruitlessly finding a big city Detroit area riding area.... and that it was more important to ride the sides of lower peninsula roads than to throw every resource we had at working together with the USFS and among all the groups to save the access to these forests.
Throw in the fact that these so-called 'leaders' wasted even more of our resources during this same time trying to add yet even more mileage to a system that has been absolutely maintained like crap for years (causing many of us to leave the state in search of decent riding opportunity).....one in which the concept of 60" trails (with the privitized maintenance opportunities that could have followed) was quickly killed for purely greedy reasoning..and I think that you get my point.
These aren't personal attacks...they are facts that will surely get me kicked off of this forum and attacked myself for simply presenting them as such.
By the way....does anybody now care to talk about the two Michigan orv advisory board so-called 'leaders' presently working on long-expired terms and why these two individuals have been quietly and bogusly kept in power when nobody else in the history of this sport has been given the same opportunity to continually wield this type of influence?
#52
07-04-2007 | 06:09 PM
Weekend Warrior
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]I'll tell you what, after reading all these postings, I can tell you I have obviously had my head in the sand I did not know it was this bad all over the country.
I am going to try and contact somebody at Hatfield and McCoy to find out what they do to keep their trail system so successful, but then it does help to have a Government body that cares. I was a competitive water skier ( back in the late 70's and early 80's ) up in Wisconsin and I went through a similar problem with trying to put in slalom courses and jumps on lakes ( Fishermen didn't really like water skiers ) and we ( Ski Clubs ) got it as far as a court hearing. The court hearing was a joke and we ( Ski Clubs ) got our asses kicked cause only about 20 skiers showed up, but about 150 fishermen did so you know what side the courts went with. The problem we found out was so many people want to have the fun but do not want to work for it, they were so simple minded that if there was any kind of trouble the would just sell their equipment and go on to another thing to do ( no passion ) what so ever. This is sounding awfully similar ( deja vue ) but I will try and do what ever I can, and first will be joining OMTA to get some direction.
I am going to try and contact somebody at Hatfield and McCoy to find out what they do to keep their trail system so successful, but then it does help to have a Government body that cares. I was a competitive water skier ( back in the late 70's and early 80's ) up in Wisconsin and I went through a similar problem with trying to put in slalom courses and jumps on lakes ( Fishermen didn't really like water skiers ) and we ( Ski Clubs ) got it as far as a court hearing. The court hearing was a joke and we ( Ski Clubs ) got our asses kicked cause only about 20 skiers showed up, but about 150 fishermen did so you know what side the courts went with. The problem we found out was so many people want to have the fun but do not want to work for it, they were so simple minded that if there was any kind of trouble the would just sell their equipment and go on to another thing to do ( no passion ) what so ever. This is sounding awfully similar ( deja vue ) but I will try and do what ever I can, and first will be joining OMTA to get some direction.
#53
07-04-2007 | 07:38 PM
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
Originally posted by: Motorsports
So it sounds it is ok with the ORV leaders in MI that the USFS is closing National Forest lands to ALL MOTORIZED USE??
Does this sound ok to you? END OF QU0TE**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BB QUOTE*
What he's saying is that it was more important for them to work on tripling the training percentages taken out of the sticker fund and into these non-profit's pockets....that it was much more important to waste time on fruitlessly finding a big city Detroit area riding area.... and that it was more important to ride the sides of lower peninsula roads than to throw every resource we had at working together with the USFS and among all the groups to save the access to these forests END OF QUOTE*
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WHY in GODS name did they ever allow your silly lying *** back in here?Your nothing but lies where ever you go.You have no solutions for anything,ever, but are real fast to point out what is wrong with everyone else.
Tell the audience in here where ONE NON-PROFIT INSTRUCTOR received even ONE PENNY from this propossed ''tripling of the percentage'' for ORV training that you so boldly speak of?----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOTORSPORTS,
It's not OK with me that we have National forest lands closed, but sometimes, you have to keep your ducks in a row and not try to take on more than you can sucessfully handle in your sport. This National forest closings is not the only signifigant ORV issue that we have going on in Michigan with reegrds to our sport.
So it sounds it is ok with the ORV leaders in MI that the USFS is closing National Forest lands to ALL MOTORIZED USE??
Does this sound ok to you? END OF QU0TE**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BB QUOTE*
What he's saying is that it was more important for them to work on tripling the training percentages taken out of the sticker fund and into these non-profit's pockets....that it was much more important to waste time on fruitlessly finding a big city Detroit area riding area.... and that it was more important to ride the sides of lower peninsula roads than to throw every resource we had at working together with the USFS and among all the groups to save the access to these forests END OF QUOTE*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHY in GODS name did they ever allow your silly lying *** back in here?Your nothing but lies where ever you go.You have no solutions for anything,ever, but are real fast to point out what is wrong with everyone else.
Tell the audience in here where ONE NON-PROFIT INSTRUCTOR received even ONE PENNY from this propossed ''tripling of the percentage'' for ORV training that you so boldly speak of?----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOTORSPORTS,
It's not OK with me that we have National forest lands closed, but sometimes, you have to keep your ducks in a row and not try to take on more than you can sucessfully handle in your sport. This National forest closings is not the only signifigant ORV issue that we have going on in Michigan with reegrds to our sport.
#55
07-04-2007 | 09:18 PM
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: LaGrande Oregon
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] It would seem there are a couple threads going here.
One would indicate perhaps "leaders" in Michigan opted to focus on state or private rather than try to influence and change the direction of the Federal Govt.
The second thread is a discussion of USFS efforts to shut down efforts for citizens to motorized access to the majority of the acres on Federaly managed public ground.
I cannot comment on the conflict within the state of Michigan.
I can state that every state in the USA that has Federally managed public ground is going to have motorized ATV/pickup/auto access severely restricted.
Check the national forest in your area.........you will be shocked.
If I can send them some input, or request some information, or anything to assist any of you in maintaining your right to public access I will gladly do so........
Its time to let the Federal land managers know who owns the land......Tass
One would indicate perhaps "leaders" in Michigan opted to focus on state or private rather than try to influence and change the direction of the Federal Govt.
The second thread is a discussion of USFS efforts to shut down efforts for citizens to motorized access to the majority of the acres on Federaly managed public ground.
I cannot comment on the conflict within the state of Michigan.
I can state that every state in the USA that has Federally managed public ground is going to have motorized ATV/pickup/auto access severely restricted.
Check the national forest in your area.........you will be shocked.
If I can send them some input, or request some information, or anything to assist any of you in maintaining your right to public access I will gladly do so........
Its time to let the Federal land managers know who owns the land......Tass
#56
07-04-2007 | 10:55 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
<u><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Tass</u>
<u>"...One would indicate perhaps "leaders" in Michigan opted to focus on state or private rather than try to influence and change the direction of the Federal Govt....."</u>
There was no money in it for them at the federal level...while at the state level; they had a funding cow already being milked dry through proposals such as the tripling of the subsidies to safety trainers (with somehow all other funding percentages 'remaining the same') and several million dollars about to be legally unfrozen that they wanted a behind-closed-doors say about also.
What attraction did the forests have when none of these guys stood to benefit monetarily from anything going on there....not to mention that much of this land is in our Upper Peninsula....far from the bright city lights of Detroit and their continuaslly whined about big city slicker riding area?
<u>"....The second thread is a discussion of USFS efforts to shut down efforts for citizens to motorized access to the majority of the acres on Federaly managed public ground...."</u>
My point here is that bad orv leadership made not only these two issues one in the same; but a microcosm of what was/is wrong in the community as a whole in terms of skewed priorities; a lack of cohesion among the user groups involved and underfunding especially. (we've tried to fund the largest maintained system in the nation PLUS activity in these forests at a rate of $16.25 per user for years with flat sticker sales...if that doesn't shame this community as a whole...I don't know what ever will).
<u>"...I can state that every state in the USA that has Federally managed public ground is going to have motorized ATV/pickup/auto access severely restricted.
Check the national forest in your area.........you will be shocked...."</u>
And I'm saying that no matter where you live; this all happened for a reason solely related to this community's inability to recognize bad leadership when it was presented to them year after year.
And how do I know this?
Because nobody has the guts to talk about it now either and would rather blame 'the government' (and pray tell who are they?) or the "greenies" instead.
These guys know the average orver could care less about any of this....and believe me are expecting a check from each one of you very soon to play the same "every user category for himself" game all over again.
BTW, I'm not disagreeing with you, Tass; just pointing out that Michigan has the largest maintained system out there and was embarrasingly led down the exact same path that many others were just to keep all that money running into the various non-profits and certainly not into the united pay-to-play system that we should have been building (witness what was done with Hatfield McCoy and others in the Appalchias....are any of those places about to be shut down for lack of proper enforcement; funding or a truly organized method of reponsibly recreating on those lands?).
Anybody who has been studying or gotten involved in this mess over any length of time...knows that most professionals and/or just plain 'good' folk have been chased away from becomming involved with these so called leaders a LONG time ago.
Now that the chips are down; they want everybody to believe that the same old formula with outright nastiness spewed towards any and all who dare disagree...should certainly earn them the right to our wallets.
I've given just as much or more than most....and (obviously) they aren't getting a dime more from me with this screwed up plan disgustingly still in hand.
<u>"...One would indicate perhaps "leaders" in Michigan opted to focus on state or private rather than try to influence and change the direction of the Federal Govt....."</u>
There was no money in it for them at the federal level...while at the state level; they had a funding cow already being milked dry through proposals such as the tripling of the subsidies to safety trainers (with somehow all other funding percentages 'remaining the same') and several million dollars about to be legally unfrozen that they wanted a behind-closed-doors say about also.
What attraction did the forests have when none of these guys stood to benefit monetarily from anything going on there....not to mention that much of this land is in our Upper Peninsula....far from the bright city lights of Detroit and their continuaslly whined about big city slicker riding area?
<u>"....The second thread is a discussion of USFS efforts to shut down efforts for citizens to motorized access to the majority of the acres on Federaly managed public ground...."</u>
My point here is that bad orv leadership made not only these two issues one in the same; but a microcosm of what was/is wrong in the community as a whole in terms of skewed priorities; a lack of cohesion among the user groups involved and underfunding especially. (we've tried to fund the largest maintained system in the nation PLUS activity in these forests at a rate of $16.25 per user for years with flat sticker sales...if that doesn't shame this community as a whole...I don't know what ever will).
<u>"...I can state that every state in the USA that has Federally managed public ground is going to have motorized ATV/pickup/auto access severely restricted.
Check the national forest in your area.........you will be shocked...."</u>
And I'm saying that no matter where you live; this all happened for a reason solely related to this community's inability to recognize bad leadership when it was presented to them year after year.
And how do I know this?
Because nobody has the guts to talk about it now either and would rather blame 'the government' (and pray tell who are they?) or the "greenies" instead.
These guys know the average orver could care less about any of this....and believe me are expecting a check from each one of you very soon to play the same "every user category for himself" game all over again.
BTW, I'm not disagreeing with you, Tass; just pointing out that Michigan has the largest maintained system out there and was embarrasingly led down the exact same path that many others were just to keep all that money running into the various non-profits and certainly not into the united pay-to-play system that we should have been building (witness what was done with Hatfield McCoy and others in the Appalchias....are any of those places about to be shut down for lack of proper enforcement; funding or a truly organized method of reponsibly recreating on those lands?).
Anybody who has been studying or gotten involved in this mess over any length of time...knows that most professionals and/or just plain 'good' folk have been chased away from becomming involved with these so called leaders a LONG time ago.
Now that the chips are down; they want everybody to believe that the same old formula with outright nastiness spewed towards any and all who dare disagree...should certainly earn them the right to our wallets.
I've given just as much or more than most....and (obviously) they aren't getting a dime more from me with this screwed up plan disgustingly still in hand.
#57
07-05-2007 | 07:32 AM
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
There was no money in it for them at the federal level...while at the state level; they had a funding cow already being milked dry through proposals such as the tripling of the subsidies to safety trainers (with somehow all other funding percentages 'remaining the same') and several million dollars about to be legally unfrozen that they wanted a behind-closed-doors say about also--END OF BB QUOTE*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, [as usual] BB cant tell this reading audience of not even a single non-profit instructor who received even a PENNY of this so called ''tripling of the percentage'' fund he speaks of?[NOTICE how he side tracks his lies?]
Yah, the ORV leaders of Michigan have done nothing except get approval for another 800 miles of new trails, spent their OWN time on their OWN dime to travel across the State to MANY DIFFERANT Township meetings in order to open up more county road shoulders so that ORV users can now access fuel, food, lodging without the worry of being stopped and harrassed by LEO..We have made over 10 trips to Lansing to meet with the DNR in referance to them licensing any LEO to instruct an ORV safety class on the mere merit of them wearing a badge and no actual ORV training to become a REAL instructor[our kids and parents suffer here]. We have spent several trips to differant area's of Michigan to actaully PROVE the above point,as students.We have met on MANY occasions with our State Reps, all on our own time/dime with respect to area's that may affect our sport. We have had to travel to differant club meetings in many differant area's of the State to inform local club leaders of HB 4323 so that they could inform their club members.
Just exactly what has BB done for the ATV sport in even ONE YEARS TIME, except sit his fat butt next to his PC buttons AND COMPLAIN about what is wrong with EVERYBODY ELSE?
Take your mood medicine and go bother another group of uneducated ATVers, cause EVERYBODY in here is tired of your constant lies and BS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, [as usual] BB cant tell this reading audience of not even a single non-profit instructor who received even a PENNY of this so called ''tripling of the percentage'' fund he speaks of?[NOTICE how he side tracks his lies?]
Yah, the ORV leaders of Michigan have done nothing except get approval for another 800 miles of new trails, spent their OWN time on their OWN dime to travel across the State to MANY DIFFERANT Township meetings in order to open up more county road shoulders so that ORV users can now access fuel, food, lodging without the worry of being stopped and harrassed by LEO..We have made over 10 trips to Lansing to meet with the DNR in referance to them licensing any LEO to instruct an ORV safety class on the mere merit of them wearing a badge and no actual ORV training to become a REAL instructor[our kids and parents suffer here]. We have spent several trips to differant area's of Michigan to actaully PROVE the above point,as students.We have met on MANY occasions with our State Reps, all on our own time/dime with respect to area's that may affect our sport. We have had to travel to differant club meetings in many differant area's of the State to inform local club leaders of HB 4323 so that they could inform their club members.
Just exactly what has BB done for the ATV sport in even ONE YEARS TIME, except sit his fat butt next to his PC buttons AND COMPLAIN about what is wrong with EVERYBODY ELSE?
Take your mood medicine and go bother another group of uneducated ATVers, cause EVERYBODY in here is tired of your constant lies and BS.
#58
07-05-2007 | 02:56 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
Muddy4Life:
"..Once again, [as usual] BB cant tell this reading audience of not even a single non-profit instructor who received even a PENNY of this so called ''tripling of the percentage'' fund he speaks of?[NOTICE how he side tracks his <u>lies</u>?]..."
As I described in detail earlier; the above propensity to verbally attack any and all who question even the slightest pressing issues we're faced with has greeted potential volunteers up here in Michigan for decades now.
Muddy won't argue the fact that these guys wasted all manner of effort and resources over a long period of time in leadership's attempt to triple their unneeded training subsidies to the tune of almost 600 grand....as he's more interested in trying to convince everybody that I'm both a liar and actually claimed that they received this money in the first place.
(blackballed's original quote):
"...while at the state level; they had a funding cow already being milked dry through <u>proposals</u> such as the tripling of the subsidies to safety trainers..."
Again, this is exactly why the average guy or gal has been chased away from this sport for years and (frankly) just refuses to put up with this crap on the volunteer level. I can't count how many times that I've heard this "what have YOU done" crap over and over again; as if any volunteer stepping forward would want this shoved in his or her face from the get-go.(amazingly, I even partnered with Muddy on a few safety training classes in my area; so I have no idea as to why he or any of these orv leaders wave this flag in most everybody's face that steps forward).
(Muddy4Life above):
"......Just exactly what has BB done for the ATV sport in even ONE YEARS TIME, except sit his <u>fat butt</u> next to his PC buttons AND COMPLAIN about what is wrong with EVERYBODY ELSE?
<u>Take your mood medicine</u> and go bother <u>another group of uneducated ATVers</u>, cause EVERYBODY in here is tired of your constant <u>lies and BS</u>...."
It's got to stop sometime, folks....as I am afraid that we will never get back the scores of those stepping forward who have been chased away already. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] (would you ride with these guys?).
"..Once again, [as usual] BB cant tell this reading audience of not even a single non-profit instructor who received even a PENNY of this so called ''tripling of the percentage'' fund he speaks of?[NOTICE how he side tracks his <u>lies</u>?]..."
As I described in detail earlier; the above propensity to verbally attack any and all who question even the slightest pressing issues we're faced with has greeted potential volunteers up here in Michigan for decades now.
Muddy won't argue the fact that these guys wasted all manner of effort and resources over a long period of time in leadership's attempt to triple their unneeded training subsidies to the tune of almost 600 grand....as he's more interested in trying to convince everybody that I'm both a liar and actually claimed that they received this money in the first place.
(blackballed's original quote):
"...while at the state level; they had a funding cow already being milked dry through <u>proposals</u> such as the tripling of the subsidies to safety trainers..."
Again, this is exactly why the average guy or gal has been chased away from this sport for years and (frankly) just refuses to put up with this crap on the volunteer level. I can't count how many times that I've heard this "what have YOU done" crap over and over again; as if any volunteer stepping forward would want this shoved in his or her face from the get-go.(amazingly, I even partnered with Muddy on a few safety training classes in my area; so I have no idea as to why he or any of these orv leaders wave this flag in most everybody's face that steps forward).
(Muddy4Life above):
"......Just exactly what has BB done for the ATV sport in even ONE YEARS TIME, except sit his <u>fat butt</u> next to his PC buttons AND COMPLAIN about what is wrong with EVERYBODY ELSE?
<u>Take your mood medicine</u> and go bother <u>another group of uneducated ATVers</u>, cause EVERYBODY in here is tired of your constant <u>lies and BS</u>...."
It's got to stop sometime, folks....as I am afraid that we will never get back the scores of those stepping forward who have been chased away already. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] (would you ride with these guys?).
#59
07-05-2007 | 05:13 PM
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
The ONLY thing ANY ORV leader here in Michigan has/had wasted their time on was listening to ANYTHING that come from YOUR lips..
Your a waste of everybodys time and have NOTHING constructive to add to our sport for anybody. Im completely SHOCKED to see they [mods] wasted their time letting someone with your well known record for BS and outright lies, back in here.
I think your at the end of the rope now. After they boot you from the Connection again, you may have to start your OWN website just to have one to go to.
Your a waste of everybodys time and have NOTHING constructive to add to our sport for anybody. Im completely SHOCKED to see they [mods] wasted their time letting someone with your well known record for BS and outright lies, back in here.
I think your at the end of the rope now. After they boot you from the Connection again, you may have to start your OWN website just to have one to go to.
#60
07-05-2007 | 09:19 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
YOUR Quad will be worth nothing!!!
Nobody hass attacked anybody here personally but yourself, Muddy...and I really don't have any more to say about how "I believe" we've lost all this land around the country or what/who (again) "I feel" is responsible for it.
It's my opinion, pure and simple....'live with it'....or indeed keep straying off topic with nothing but insults.
By the way, has anybody noticed that immediately after losing all this land in our national forests due to incompetent leadership...the cycle leaders are now getting support from all over the nation to draft arrogantly selfish legislation to keep the vast majority orv community out here forever off (quote/unquote) THEIR massive single track mileage?
From the largest maintained trail system in the United States (Michigan's only 'quarterly' and official source for <u>all</u> orv info):
NEW BUSINESS
Motorcycle Trail Petition -- Chairman Ranney thanked Mr. Magowan for submitting the petition and
request for a Director's Order to preserve motorcycle only trails.
Mr. DeBrabander noted the Department's recognition of designated motorcycle trails. Last month,
FMFM's Management Team directed the trail analysts to evaluate the trails and make
recommendations to identify trails that should continue to be maintained for motorcycle only protected by Director's Order.
Everybody get ready to bend over once again......[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
It's my opinion, pure and simple....'live with it'....or indeed keep straying off topic with nothing but insults.
By the way, has anybody noticed that immediately after losing all this land in our national forests due to incompetent leadership...the cycle leaders are now getting support from all over the nation to draft arrogantly selfish legislation to keep the vast majority orv community out here forever off (quote/unquote) THEIR massive single track mileage?
From the largest maintained trail system in the United States (Michigan's only 'quarterly' and official source for <u>all</u> orv info):
NEW BUSINESS
Motorcycle Trail Petition -- Chairman Ranney thanked Mr. Magowan for submitting the petition and
request for a Director's Order to preserve motorcycle only trails.
Mr. DeBrabander noted the Department's recognition of designated motorcycle trails. Last month,
FMFM's Management Team directed the trail analysts to evaluate the trails and make
recommendations to identify trails that should continue to be maintained for motorcycle only protected by Director's Order.
Everybody get ready to bend over once again......[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]