These speak clearly of not seeking revenge. We are to forgive our persecutors as God has forgiven us. It's God's to repay... It doesn't speak of a nationwide or worldwide battle between a clearly evil enemy. God made governments to bear the sword on this kind of basis. The personal scriptures where you are a Christian turning the other cheek are in order to possibly save some out of their sin. As for someone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night to rape your wife or harm your children the Bible clearly allows in both the New and Old Testament for self-defense or the defense of others. Matthew 24:42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Under persecution for being a Christian we are to take it and consider it a blessing to suffer as Christ did. Matthew 5:10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

Why God did that isn't really made clear. But, God does test us to see what's in our hearts. What is made clear is that our ancestors and we are not good at following commands and therefore sin against our maker. This is why Jesus came and sacrificed for us to pay our price for the sins we have, are, and will commit. As far as abortion goes, I find it interesting that this nation considered abortion murder up until 1972. And it was legalized in Roe vs. Wade by the SC based on a case that was a lie. Norma McCorvey was used as a pawn and wasn't even seeking an abortion at the time of the case. Roe Versus Wade, Revisited It was the Supreme Court that overturned almost 200 years of considering abortion murder.
Psalm 139:14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 6:16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. I can't think of anyone more innocent than a child in the womb who's heart started beating 21 days after conception... God allows us to do as we please up to a point. This does not mean he agrees with sin. It means he is not going against himself in giving us free will to, "choose this day who we are going to serve." Sin is disobedience. After that is judgement. After that is wrath. I think we are guilty after 42 million abortions since 1972.

 

Sounds good.

Jesus also said a servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted him, think what they will do to you.

Seems many Christians are greater than their master to me. Something to think about.

 

Are you sure? Doesn't God know already? Doesn't it say somewhere that God does not tempt? Yet, consider what happened to Job.

When was the first law enacted to make abortion illegal in this nation? I don't know that much about this type of thing.

When is a child no longer considered innocent?

Do you have difficulty imagining Saddam Hussein as a cute n cuddly innocent baby? Don't you wish you could go back in time and end a lot of suffering before it started?

Doesn't the bible say something to the effect "names written in the lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world"? Doesn't the bible mention predestination oodles of times? Didn't God say he created Pharaoh to do exactly what Pharaoh did? Therefore, if predestination holds, and using the bible as a foundation, you cannot make an argument that all babies are innocent when in fact some are destined for hell.

Which would be better.... To raise a child in a malformed family that, upon adulthood, wouldn't have the skills and raising necessary to be anything other than a burden on society (or worse yet, an outright criminal or terrorist) or to be aborted? I know I'd rather have been aborted and have not know this world than to have grown up into a criminal, had a father that raped me or pimped me out, or any number of unspeakable things.

 

God allowed Job to be tested or tempted by the devil. True. But, he also gives the grace (strength) to resist sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

I honestly don't know when it was outlawed. I imagine that most people wouldn't have thought of doing this to their offspring in olden times. We've become a throw away society that even goes as far as discarding inconvenient pregnancies.

I can't see the future so I think the Hussein argument is moot for me. All I know is it is not mine to take a person's life unless it's in defense of others or even self defense. God allows us to be protectors. God even allowed and blessed the Hebrew midwives who lied to protect the lives of the Hebrew children. As far as Pharoah goes the Scriptures go back and forth between saying Pharoah hardened his heart and the next time, God hardened Pharoah's heart. It seems to me like we have a lot to say about whether we get to Heaven or not. It's by His blood but we can reject the offer. 1 Timothy 1:18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. Sounds like Hymenaeus and Alexander had the faith relationship with God but threw it away. 2 Peter 1:9But if anyone does not have them (self control, godliness, etc.), he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We have to maintain the relationship and walk the walk. We can say goodbye and suffer the consequences.

Some people, infant to elderly, will stand judgement. Romans 2:14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I don't see any babies being pre-destined to be the next Hitler. But, there will be some who grow up to be this way.

I have been persecuted, even by my own family which is a mix of agnostics and Catholics. I've also been beaten up a few times by police when I was in Operation Rescue. But, I don't really consider it persecution compared to what Christians in Iran, North Korea, China and other places go through.

I agree that many might in some way think they are greater than their master, but I hope I'm not one of them. When I really take the time to look at myself.... Well, let's just say, I haven't arrived yet....

 

They used to shove wire up there in the old days to do the deed. Sometimes they used herbs to cause a miscarriage. Times have not changed.... Only the news coverage. Boy n girls were raped by their fathers, uncles, brothers, cousins, etc all the time in the old days. You just didn't hear about it. Actually, the incidence has probably declined in modern times due to technology, risk of jail time over it, and being a single mother is no big deal anymore like it used to be. In the old days, if you got knocked up, you "went to live with your aunt" for a while... Wink, wink.

So, I guess euthanasia is a no-no for you too, lol. I don't know.... If I had the choice of having to kill someone laying there suffering with death being surely imminent or killing someone who wishes to sock me in the jaw a few times n take my wallet, I guess I'd rather kill the one in pain. At least I feel I could justify it before God. Killing someone that attacked me seems contradictory to what Jesus would do... Since he let people beat the sense out of him and nail him to a tree n all. If I had the power to heal as Jesus did, well, I'd certainly do that, but I don't. But I do have the power to pull the plug and there is just no sense in letting someone lay there n suffer. And by the same logic, there is no sense in letting someone be born into this world who will end up suffering all their lives. That's the true evil, if you ask me.

Well, we can't have back n forth. It either is or isn't. The bible says God created Pharoah for the role Pharoah played. And if that's not true, then we have a contradiction and whole thing needs thrown in the garbage... Because we certainly can't just pick n choose what we like and form a religion out of it.

I know it seems like we should, but I don't think its biblical. Saved is past tense. Born again with an indestructable new spirit doesn't sound like something you can easily get out of (or easily acquire, for that matter).

John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will ****** them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to ****** them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
Romans 8:37-39 “No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Sounds like it, but maybe they never truly had it to begin with. If they did, then we have another apparent contradiction.

Calling and election. You are called. You are elected. But you do not choose to be called or elected. How could you?

Eph 1

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rom 8

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The bible is very clear on predestination.

"elect" is mentioned 17 times, "election" 6 times, "predestinate" twice, and "predestinated" twice in KJV bible. Along with many verses that allude to the fact without coming right out and saying it. But nobody wants to believe you don't have a choice, so they reconstruct the bible to fit their definition of good. But you must realize the infinite power of God, who knows all things before they happen. He knows every person that will go to hell and allows them to be born anyway, even though there is no chance of any other outcome. Does that sound like something you would do? I think not. Your definition of good and God's definition are clearly different. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares? How the master said to let them grow together and at harvest we'll separate them out and throw the tares in the oven. Can you not tell a tare from a wheat when still a seed or young plant?

First of all, no man wants to be saved unless the the Holy Ghost first does a work in him. So, who chooses whom here? You can't choose God until God chooses you. Consider the parable of the sower.... Some seeds just fall in the wrong spots. They have no choice in the matter.

Second, what about all the tribes-people and people that never get a chance to hear the Word and make a choice? Hellbound? Or free ticket to heaven?

Therefore salvation can't be based on choice.... At least, not on your choice. Its God's.

 

Okay, JustRandy, we'll have to agree to disagree on some issues I guess. This is getting too long winded for me to keep up. I've seen too many people who were born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, and later in their walk just leave it all behind and end up in sin all over again. Kind of like the demon being driven out of someone and then coming back with 7 more. If you open the door sin will come in. The Scriptures guaranteeing election don't preclude our free will. God didn't make us robots. We have to choose this day who we are going to serve. There wouldn't be so much admonition to press on, keep the faith, etc. if there wasn't the possibility of backsliding. We have to maintain the relationship. If we do there is nothing in heaven or Earth that can yank us out of his hands.

Given the start of this thread it's funny how this shows how big a terrorist I am... When I was beaten on by the police for sitting in an abortion clinics doorway peacefully I could have lashed out. That wasn't why I was there.

 

The Lord works in mysterious ways

 

Agreeing to disagree is all I really want.

How do you know they were born again?

Yes, but that's demons and sin. Not salvation.

God didn't make us robots. You can still choose whether to put the left or right shoe on first, but you can't do anything to get salvation. All you need to do is believe, but how do you make yourself believe if you don't already believe? Its a catch 22 because there is no proof or evidence. Faith is the evidence. My old preacher used to say, "I know that I know." That's not something you can make yourself do, that's something God gives.

Paul said, "23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 cor 10

We don't live under the law, we live by faith. So, what law could we break that would end our salvation? Breaking the laws might make your life difficult though, as Paul said.

I can't even remember the start of the thread, lol. You're a good man. Your family and friends are lucky to have you.

 

I know they were born again by the word of their testimony, the prescence of the Spirit in them, and the fruit of their lives.

I agree that without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus said, "No man can come to the Father but that He call them".

A good example of a believer putting his salvation in jeopardy by his actions is here: 1 Corinthians 5:1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. Notice it says, ...so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved. His soul is in jeopardy if I read this right.