Then they're ok. I know people that used to fill the church pews, but ended up going back to their old ways (drinking, never going to church, etc). Even though in their messed up lives, they still profess Jesus and still love to talk bible. Eyes still well up with tears when hearing the word. The spirit hasn't changed, just the flesh is weak.

My intepretation is that in the end his spirit will be saved on the day of judgement (which is the day of the Lord).

I regard the soul as body + spirit (7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.). The spirit is what changes when you're born again. On the day of the judgement, those with new spirits get new bodies and become new souls and go to be with the Lord. Those without new spirits also get new bodies, but will stand for judgement. When you die, there is no more soul. The body is dead. All that remains is the spirit until it gets a new body and becomes a soul again.

 

JustRandy said: Then they're ok. I know people that used to fill the church pews, but ended up going back to their old ways (drinking, never going to church, etc). Even though in their messed up lives, they still profess Jesus and still love to talk bible. Eyes still well up with tears when hearing the word. The spirit hasn't changed, just the flesh is weak.

While I hope you are right I see too many warnings in Scripture about drunkards, sexually immoral (sex outside of a marriage), etc. to want to even put my feet in that kind of water. The warnings that are listed are warnings to the Church and they are dire. Galatians 5:19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. From what I've read there is either the kingdom of God or a very nasty eternity. Not worth the risk.

 

You're displaying characteristics of a "works" centered faith. The WHOLE thing about the bible is drilling into people's heads that works and the law mean nothing towards salvation. Salvation is based on faith ALONE.

What you've said above is people that get drunk, have orgies, etc will not go to heaven... But its not because they got drunk, etc that they won't go. They won't go because they aren't saved. And the evidence of not being saved are the parties and orgies. However, evidence and proof are not the same. Just because someone drinks, does not mean they aren't saved. But its not a good sign either.

Paul said all things are lawful. So, that means a saved person can go out and get drunk every night and not have a problem getting to heaven. But, a saved person probably will not want to do those sorts of things. "By their fruits you shall know them." If people continually bear bad fruit, you might speculate that they aren't saved. You can't say for sure since you can't know their hearts. Likewise, if people bear good fruit, you might be inclined to think they are saved. Only God knows for sure. But the point of all this is works means nothing. I can't emphasize that enough.

If works were enough, Jesus would not have had to come n die on the cross. All we would have to do is obey the law and we'd be ok. But we can't obey the law. Paul went to great pain to tell us how breaking one law makes you a lawbreaker and, after that, its game over. You can't go back and start fresh. You're forever known as a lawbreaker. But Jesus changed all that. We need not concern ourselves with the law anymore.... Only have faith that no matter what we do, it will be covered by the blood.

 

I agree that salvation is faith alone by the grace of God. I'm not contesting that. There is nothing I can do to pay the price for my sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus. But, faith without works is dead. All through the New Testament the word belief can also be translated as obey. I think you're saying that the person who does the above sins was never saved and therefore not covered by grace. I'm saying that a person can be saved and throw it all away by leaving the very Saviour who saved them. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can sin and repent. Hebrews 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

This clearly describes a person who was saved but has gone back to sin and is not repenting. This is my biggest problem with pre-destination is that it can be used as an EXCUSE for sin. If there is anything this nation needs right now it's Christians behaving like Christians. I know the Scriptures don't forbid drinking as long as it's not to drunkeness but I don't drink because I've had instances talking to old friends where my not drinking has caused them not too. I had another "Christian" come along with a beer and then the cans and bottles started opening. The witnessing ceased and they went on to get drunk. I often wonder if this guy didn't come with a beer where that night would have gone. I'm still not willing to take the chance that my desires would give birth to sin, sin give birth to death, as I've read. 1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. This, I cling to... 2 Peter 1:5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is how I try to live by His grace... Funride, I don't know that we are really that far apart. The blood is always there to cleanse us when we fall. There is no other way to Heaven. Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. It's a two party relationship. He's God, I'm nothing... He must increase, I must decrease. If it was good enough for John the Baptist, it's good enough for me.

 

Faith without works is dead because works is the evidence of faith, not the source. Works are the fruit on the tree.

If you leave the savior that saved you, you were never saved in the first place. Its the only way I can make sense of the bible without having to totally disregard certain passages.

What this says to me is if you fall away (ie sin), you cannot be forgiven. Which, obviously, doesn't make sense. So, if you backslide, you cannot come back? What about the prodigal son? What about being forgiven 7 times 70? What about Jesus saying its impossible to deceive the elect and that no man can pluck you out of his hand?

I really don't know what Paul was trying to get across here. But I suppose I could say, "what if Jesus had decided to fall away instead of 'drinking from the cup' his father handed him?" Was that even possible? And if he did 'fall away', could he come back? Something to think about.

Sooooo glad you said that. A saved person does not need an excuse for sin because he doesn't want to sin. And if he does sin, he feels bad. There is no need for an excuse. Now, if a person says, "the bible says its ok to go sin and still get to heaven so I'm going out to steal my neighbor's atv", that person is clearly not saved in the first place.

I'm not much of a drinker either. When I'm angry or depressed, I can put a few away, but most of the time I sit around with my friends who consume cases of budlite and I find its about as tempting as a swift kick in the head. Alcohol dehydrates me, and beer usually leads to a temple-throbbing headache. But I have had some good biblical/philosophical conversations while drinking, so I wouldn't say the drink itself is evil. Jesus said its not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man, its what comes out. But if your goal is to go out and do something you'll regret, the first step would probably be to get drunk.

 

JustRandy said: I'm not much of a drinker either. When I'm angry or depressed, I can put a few away, but most of the time I sit around with my friends who consume cases of budlite and I find its about as tempting as a swift kick in the head. Alcohol dehydrates me, and beer usually leads to a temple-throbbing headache. But I have had some good biblical/philosophical conversations while drinking, so I wouldn't say the drink itself is evil. Jesus said its not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man, its what comes out. But if your goal is to go out and do something you'll regret, the first step would probably be to get drunk.

Ain't that the truth.

Hebrews 6:4 speaks of someone who knew him, went back to sin, and stayed in the sin rather than turn back and repent and receive forgiveness.

Still, I guess we'll agree to disagree. As long as we, "Love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength."

 

Judas?

They say Jesus would have forgiven him if he'd asked. Not sure if he ever did or if he threw himself off a cliff first.

That's the good thing about this country, we can always agree to disagree! Well,,,, at least a couple reasonable people can. Some people have to control others. I have no idea why.

 

He would have forgiven Judas...

I've tried to keep to my axiom that the only person I can control is myself. And, that, only with a lot of God's grace.