This is really making me mad.
#11
09-12-2009, 01:20 PM
Super Moderator
Well, golly JimBob!
Well, golly JimBob!
Every statistic I've read shows the deficit climbed to 1.6 trillion after the stimulus package of earlier this year. The projections are that it will go to 7 to 10 trillion with the spending that is now going on. Revenews are down due to unemployment and the recession in general. I'm not going to get into the, "you find your facts", and "I'll find my facts", with you Funride. I'm stating what is generally accepted as the numbers as they stand. The estimates are exactly that; estimates. I hope they are wrong, but I know you cannot keep spending money that is not there and expect to keep going in that line.
#12
09-12-2009, 01:33 PM
Super Moderator
Well, golly JimBob!
Well, golly JimBob!
Another interesting chart you had, Funride is the first one. It's debt as a percentage of gross national product. Not actual debt. I imagine that the GNP is much larger than earlier in our country's history. Our actual debt load is getting crazy and I don't hear much talk in Congress, the Senate, or the Executive Branch about slowing it down. Everthing they are trying to pass is going to cost us more and more. Unfortunetly, money does not magically grow on trees.
#13
09-12-2009, 11:02 PM
Pro Rider
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of it is sickening to me....
The whole dang system has became a propaganda machine and most of the public is head over heals fooled by it... and busy themselves debating a bunch of crap that don't matter... and while you are busy doing that, they are busy accepting legal bribes (lobby money, etc) to look out for their own interests and push things through that get them paid.
Both parties are corrupt... so much to the point that what we need is a new party.
However, in the years since Reagan left office, these two parties have driven us so far down that I'm not sure we can really recover.
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate with every breath you take.
No matter where it is, who it is, or what the political background is, the economic health of a country is really no different than a regular old checkbook folks.
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
Want to take something serious? Take that serious. Look at our various trade deficits. These d@mn trade programs are not working. All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods, and we would buy some of their goods at a HUGE cost savings to us... thus being a good thing.
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with... and all that happened was is that the owners of our manufacturing companies moved their operations to these countries seeking wage cuts and reduced material costs.... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
Now people have less disposable income, are farther in debt, their money buys less, their wages are not increasing, and many of them no longer have jobs making things in order to have the money to spend or pay into the tax system...
Now while the majority of the country was content to be a bleeding heart Republican or Democrat.... and gladly busy themselves with laughing at the physical appearance of a candidate.... one did stand right there in the debates and tell the American public this was going to happen word for word...
And the country laughed and snickered about his ears, and etc... and we elected Clinton into office.... TWICE!
But who is laughing now?.... Ross Perot is...
So you guys can sit here and spew your Republican, or Democrat BS all you want.
But one is really not that much different than the other anymore...
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
Ever wonder why they will put so much time, money and effort into getting elected into a low paying job, and how they retire after a term or two with enough wealth to never have to do anything else for the rest of their lives?
Wake up people.
The whole dang system has became a propaganda machine and most of the public is head over heals fooled by it... and busy themselves debating a bunch of crap that don't matter... and while you are busy doing that, they are busy accepting legal bribes (lobby money, etc) to look out for their own interests and push things through that get them paid.
Both parties are corrupt... so much to the point that what we need is a new party.
However, in the years since Reagan left office, these two parties have driven us so far down that I'm not sure we can really recover.
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate with every breath you take.
No matter where it is, who it is, or what the political background is, the economic health of a country is really no different than a regular old checkbook folks.
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
Want to take something serious? Take that serious. Look at our various trade deficits. These d@mn trade programs are not working. All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods, and we would buy some of their goods at a HUGE cost savings to us... thus being a good thing.
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with... and all that happened was is that the owners of our manufacturing companies moved their operations to these countries seeking wage cuts and reduced material costs.... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
Now people have less disposable income, are farther in debt, their money buys less, their wages are not increasing, and many of them no longer have jobs making things in order to have the money to spend or pay into the tax system...
Now while the majority of the country was content to be a bleeding heart Republican or Democrat.... and gladly busy themselves with laughing at the physical appearance of a candidate.... one did stand right there in the debates and tell the American public this was going to happen word for word...
And the country laughed and snickered about his ears, and etc... and we elected Clinton into office.... TWICE!
But who is laughing now?.... Ross Perot is...
So you guys can sit here and spew your Republican, or Democrat BS all you want.
But one is really not that much different than the other anymore...
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
Ever wonder why they will put so much time, money and effort into getting elected into a low paying job, and how they retire after a term or two with enough wealth to never have to do anything else for the rest of their lives?
Wake up people.
#14
09-13-2009, 09:19 AM
This was a Wilson mouth discussion, but I'll go with it.
Not anymore. People are spending less than they have in years with a high personal savings rate. It's a problem for a strong recovery going forward.
Correct. Capitalism is based on endless and continued growth. There will be dips and plunges along the way.
You said earlier that the economy is weak.....but we can't be a nation of consumers. Our economy is based largely on consumption. That's why we live so well in relation to other nations. We can't all ride ATVs and drive nice pickup trucks AND be laborers in the mines. Our economy is mature and we don't manufacture as much as we used to. As economies mature they oursource more and import more. Who wants to make sox for 2 cents each. Not me.
See above.
Especially when the Republicans are giving those very same people major tax breaks and the remaining 98% of slobs are making up for their gain.
True. Big problem with China.
Not entirely true. There are lots of wealthy people that live in China and Russia buying our products. The largest buyer of civilian Hummers right now is in Iraq. As their economies grow they demand more, but it also increases costs for ourselves. Not sure if you drink beer, but have you noticed the increase in costs (not taxes) over the last few years? India is producing so many new middle class, they are buying beer like water and the cost of hops has gone through the roof. A six pack of Samuel Adams Lager is almost $8 right now from the hops increases.
True, but our standard of living is 10x what it was in 1950. You can't have growth if everything lasts forever. Somebody has to sell all this stuff.
I doubt discussions of heath care, Afghanistan, Iraq, energy needs, national security, and our environment are "frivolous" debates. Not all our Representives in Congress and the Senate are lying cheaters looking to screw everybody.
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
#15
09-13-2009, 02:26 PM
Pro Rider
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
Not anymore. People are spending less than they have in years with a high personal savings rate. It's a problem for a strong recovery going forward.
People are already in debt, and people have stopped spending as much because they are not making as much, or anything at all, and do not have the disposable income for 'spending'... so they continue to stay in debt, making payments on what they need.
It's gotten to the point where a lot of household budgets can't spend anymore... they barely eat after the bills are paid... and institutions are not loaning them any more.
Those who have done well enough not to have to worry about this yet have cut spending also, fearing they will be in the same spot in th future.
Bottom line is, people have to have funding to spend in the first place, rather by earnings or loans... and that has been greatly reduced as a whole. So where does the recovery come in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate
Correct. Capitalism is based on endless and continued growth. There will be dips and plunges along the way.
What I am speaking of is actual currency LEAVING the country for goods, which takes it out of circulation in this country. And you know where the returning amounts end up.... in the hands of the rich that own/run the manufacturing they moved from the US to other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
You said earlier that the economy is weak.....but we can't be a nation of consumers. Our economy is based largely on consumption. That's why we live so well in relation to other nations. We can't all ride ATVs and drive nice pickup trucks AND be laborers in the mines. Our economy is mature and we don't manufacture as much as we used to. As economies mature they oursource more and import more. Who wants to make sox for 2 cents each. Not me.
Like it or not, that is what they tried to make us into... a nation of consumers, and we have spent our money on imported goods, and kind of done a good job of becoming a nation of consumers.
But now what? We continue to decline as our spending builds other countries up... and I guess we meet somewhere in between and maybe stabilize. Those days of 'living better' are slipping away.
Now just as we all can't work in the mines, or making socks... not all of us can work at walmart, the grocery store, the restaurant, some office job, driving a truck, or some job in the service industry.
Things are out of balance now, because we are not making and consuming enough of our own goods. They have done away with the manufacturing, which had a buy/sell loop back into the general economy. Instead, now that loop back has now been eliminated and re-routed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
See above.
Bottom line is we are not making much and selling much to ourselves and other nations. We are making little and buying a lot... which can't continue without eventually causing the system to decline and maybe go bust...
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
Especially when the Republicans are giving those very same people major tax breaks and the remaining 98% of slobs are making up for their gain.
Both parties are catering to the rich... obviously... because they are the ones with the money to buy protection of their own interests in Washington... And both parties are glad to stuff their pockets with this legal bribe money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods
True. Big problem with China.
Yes, the worst of it is China... but there are also many others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with...... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
Not entirely true. There are lots of wealthy people that live in China and Russia buying our products. The largest buyer of civilian Hummers right now is in Iraq. As their economies grow they demand more, but it also increases costs for ourselves. Not sure if you drink beer, but have you noticed the increase in costs (not taxes) over the last few years? India is producing so many new middle class, they are buying beer like water and the cost of hops has gone through the roof. A six pack of Samuel Adams Lager is almost $8 right now from the hops increases.
True-true... But the big issues being these... we are fueling these other country's industrial revolution by exporting all of our manufacturing jobs there, and in turn buying those goods from them. And while they buy a few goods from us, it's but a speck in comparison to what we are spending out on their goods.... and meanwhile, as their revolutions build, they drive up the global cost of commodities as they become a competing consumer of them and also drive up demand... Everything from hops to oil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
True, but our standard of living is 10x what it was in 1950. You can't have growth if everything lasts forever. Somebody has to sell all this stuff.
You'll not get me to agree with that on the standard of living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
I doubt discussions of heath care, Afghanistan, Iraq, energy needs, national security, and our environment are "frivolous" debates. Not all our Representives in Congress and the Senate are lying cheaters looking to screw everybody.
I'm not saying those are not important... but they are not as urgent.
Originally Posted by duster
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
Not anymore. People are spending less than they have in years with a high personal savings rate. It's a problem for a strong recovery going forward.
People are already in debt, and people have stopped spending as much because they are not making as much, or anything at all, and do not have the disposable income for 'spending'... so they continue to stay in debt, making payments on what they need.
It's gotten to the point where a lot of household budgets can't spend anymore... they barely eat after the bills are paid... and institutions are not loaning them any more.
Those who have done well enough not to have to worry about this yet have cut spending also, fearing they will be in the same spot in th future.
Bottom line is, people have to have funding to spend in the first place, rather by earnings or loans... and that has been greatly reduced as a whole. So where does the recovery come in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate
Correct. Capitalism is based on endless and continued growth. There will be dips and plunges along the way.
What I am speaking of is actual currency LEAVING the country for goods, which takes it out of circulation in this country. And you know where the returning amounts end up.... in the hands of the rich that own/run the manufacturing they moved from the US to other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
You said earlier that the economy is weak.....but we can't be a nation of consumers. Our economy is based largely on consumption. That's why we live so well in relation to other nations. We can't all ride ATVs and drive nice pickup trucks AND be laborers in the mines. Our economy is mature and we don't manufacture as much as we used to. As economies mature they oursource more and import more. Who wants to make sox for 2 cents each. Not me.
Like it or not, that is what they tried to make us into... a nation of consumers, and we have spent our money on imported goods, and kind of done a good job of becoming a nation of consumers.
But now what? We continue to decline as our spending builds other countries up... and I guess we meet somewhere in between and maybe stabilize. Those days of 'living better' are slipping away.
Now just as we all can't work in the mines, or making socks... not all of us can work at walmart, the grocery store, the restaurant, some office job, driving a truck, or some job in the service industry.
Things are out of balance now, because we are not making and consuming enough of our own goods. They have done away with the manufacturing, which had a buy/sell loop back into the general economy. Instead, now that loop back has now been eliminated and re-routed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
See above.
Bottom line is we are not making much and selling much to ourselves and other nations. We are making little and buying a lot... which can't continue without eventually causing the system to decline and maybe go bust...
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
Especially when the Republicans are giving those very same people major tax breaks and the remaining 98% of slobs are making up for their gain.
Both parties are catering to the rich... obviously... because they are the ones with the money to buy protection of their own interests in Washington... And both parties are glad to stuff their pockets with this legal bribe money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods
True. Big problem with China.
Yes, the worst of it is China... but there are also many others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with...... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
Not entirely true. There are lots of wealthy people that live in China and Russia buying our products. The largest buyer of civilian Hummers right now is in Iraq. As their economies grow they demand more, but it also increases costs for ourselves. Not sure if you drink beer, but have you noticed the increase in costs (not taxes) over the last few years? India is producing so many new middle class, they are buying beer like water and the cost of hops has gone through the roof. A six pack of Samuel Adams Lager is almost $8 right now from the hops increases.
True-true... But the big issues being these... we are fueling these other country's industrial revolution by exporting all of our manufacturing jobs there, and in turn buying those goods from them. And while they buy a few goods from us, it's but a speck in comparison to what we are spending out on their goods.... and meanwhile, as their revolutions build, they drive up the global cost of commodities as they become a competing consumer of them and also drive up demand... Everything from hops to oil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
True, but our standard of living is 10x what it was in 1950. You can't have growth if everything lasts forever. Somebody has to sell all this stuff.
You'll not get me to agree with that on the standard of living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
I doubt discussions of heath care, Afghanistan, Iraq, energy needs, national security, and our environment are "frivolous" debates. Not all our Representives in Congress and the Senate are lying cheaters looking to screw everybody.
I'm not saying those are not important... but they are not as urgent.
#16
09-14-2009, 05:47 PM
Don't try and make it sound like it's the "liberals". So called "conservatives" are the biggerst spenders out there, but then they give tax breaks on top of the spending......now that makes sense.
#17
09-14-2009, 06:32 PM
I never said that 50% of Americans are looking for handouts or that they don't work. But now that I think about it,I think that 75-80% of those that don't work for a living and are looking for handout's have and will continue to vote for the Democrats! why wouldn't they? They get promises of "new programs", more handout's, and promises of raising the taxes of the big corporations to pay for it all.They are all so uninformed and ignorant that they don't realize that if the taxes are raised on those corporations that those costs will just be passed down to them and all of the other consumers.
I think that many Americans do think that an easy living is owed to them. Just for being born I guess. I've been working since I was a boy and have never held my hand out to anyone unless it was to give them a hand.
I respect your right to your opinion but don't misrepresent what I say!
I think that many Americans do think that an easy living is owed to them. Just for being born I guess. I've been working since I was a boy and have never held my hand out to anyone unless it was to give them a hand.
I respect your right to your opinion but don't misrepresent what I say!
I said 50% because roughly 50% of Americans are left leaning, and 50% are right leaning. So if Liberals are looking for handouts, then 50% of Americans don't want to work for a living.
"The main problem is that everyone wants something for nothing, especially the liberals. It takes sacrifice and hard work to get to the point where you can feel financially secure. Liberals see people that have done just that and want to have their piece of the pie but don't and won't put in the time and effort to it takes to reach that point themselves. They think it would be better if it were just handed to them!
They get promises of "new programs", more handout's, and promises of raising the taxes of the big corporations to pay for it all.They are all so uninformed and ignorant that they don't realize that if the taxes are raised on those corporations that those costs will just be passed down to them and all of the other consumers.
Big corporations screw us all every time they tweak the tax laws in their favor, or move their corporate offices to some island nation to avoid income tax (Stanley Tool and hundreds of others). Why should they pay less than us. People are not so ignorant as you may think. If the big corporations think they're gong to raise their prices on us when they have to pay a fraction of their fair share, well then somebody else will fill the void and make a more competitively priced wiget.....That's capitalism for you and taxes are part of the equation, like it or not. The money they don't pay in taxes goes direct to the officers bonus checks, not the people making the products, creating the sales, or running the offices day-to-day. We pay.....so they pay. No special tax privileges because they have big dollar lobbiest. Who is our lobbiest? I thought we elected them to take care of our requirements, damn it.
Now, I'm not talking about taxing them to death, but I am talking about closing some of the loopholes they so enjoy. A little bit on their side makes up for a whole lot on our side. Just look at their bonuses.....makes one sick.
The very people making these corporate tax comments are either on corporate boards, receiving campaign contributions (both parties), or the officers themselves running the companies. They try to use their "we'll charge you more" threats as their club. It's crap, and it's got to stop. -I'm not talking about small business, I'm talking about the major Wall St. players that play us all like their little pawns while they toss the rops off their 120' yachts headed to islands unknown with duffles full of our cash.
#18
09-14-2009, 08:25 PM
Hard to reply with all the HTML tags.....But I'll try.
Frivolous to me just means not important. Good debate non-the-less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
Not anymore. People are spending less than they have in years with a high personal savings rate. It's a problem for a strong recovery going forward.
People are already in debt, and people have stopped spending as much because they are not making as much, or anything at all, and do not have the disposable income for 'spending'... so they continue to stay in debt, making payments on what they need.
Agree, however people are not spending as much because of fear for thier jobs. Fear of debt is not so much anymore.....especially when they take a second mortgage (fixed) to pay for their kitchens, hot tubs, pools, corvettes, etc. It's a big problem for a recovery. How do we "recover" when there's so much general debt. It's ugly.
It's gotten to the point where a lot of household budgets can't spend anymore... they barely eat after the bills are paid... and institutions are not loaning them any more.
True
Those who have done well enough not to have to worry about this yet have cut spending also, fearing they will be in the same spot in the future.
True. It's the "conservatives" from both parties that will spend with reserve now. Big problem for a major recovery anytime soon. They're the smart ones.
Bottom line is, people have to have funding to spend in the first place, rather by earnings or loans... and that has been greatly reduced as a whole. So where does the recovery come in?
It doesn't. There will be no major recovery until the next "big thing" kicks in.....Not sure what that next big thing is, but it will happen in the next 10 years. Gunna be a long and slow recovery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate
Correct. Capitalism is based on endless and continued growth. There will be dips and plunges along the way.
What I am speaking of is actual currency LEAVING the country for goods, which takes it out of circulation in this country. And you know where the returning amounts end up.... in the hands of the rich that own/run the manufacturing they moved from the US to other countries.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
You said earlier that the economy is weak.....but we can't be a nation of consumers. Our economy is based largely on consumption. That's why we live so well in relation to other nations. We can't all ride ATVs and drive nice pickup trucks AND be laborers in the mines. Our economy is mature and we don't manufacture as much as we used to. As economies mature they oursource more and import more. Who wants to make sox for 2 cents each. Not me.
Like it or not, that is what they tried to make us into... a nation of consumers, and we have spent our money on imported goods, and kind of done a good job of becoming a nation of consumers.
But now what? We continue to decline as our spending builds other countries up... and I guess we meet somewhere in between and maybe stabilize. Those days of 'living better' are slipping away.
Not for everybody. You just hope you're on the right side of employment equation. Unemployment is take care of the rest. We have been graced with low unemployment for years in this country. It's the bane of small business. There's nobody to do the crap work. There will be now.
Things are out of balance now, because we are not making and consuming enough of our own goods. They have done away with the manufacturing, which had a buy/sell loop back into the general economy. Instead, now that loop back has now been eliminated and re-routed.
This can change, but I don't think by huge amounts. People shop price unfortunately. Too busy or worried to be really educated consumers. I buy locally as much as possible and US made, I am in the minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
See above.
Bottom line is we are not making much and selling much to ourselves and other nations. We are making little and buying a lot... which can't continue without eventually causing the system to decline and maybe go bust...
Don't totally agree. We make a lot, but buy more than we make. We are pretty much the most productive economy in the world. I don't want to make tube sox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
Especially when the Republicans are giving those very same people major tax breaks and the remaining 98% of slobs are making up for their gain.
Both parties are catering to the rich... obviously... because they are the ones with the money to buy protection of their own interests in Washington... And both parties are glad to stuff their pockets with this legal bribe money.
True in a sense, but I not quite as cynical about our Representivites from either party. We live in a imperfect democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods
True. Big problem with China.
Yes, the worst of it is China... but there are also many others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with...... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
Not entirely true. There are lots of wealthy people that live in China and Russia buying our products. The largest buyer of civilian Hummers right now is in Iraq. As their economies grow they demand more, but it also increases costs for ourselves. Not sure if you drink beer, but have you noticed the increase in costs (not taxes) over the last few years? India is producing so many new middle class, they are buying beer like water and the cost of hops has gone through the roof. A six pack of Samuel Adams Lager is almost $8 right now from the hops increases.
True-true... But the big issues being these... we are fueling these other country's industrial revolution by exporting all of our manufacturing jobs there, and in turn buying those goods from them. And while they buy a few goods from us, it's but a speck in comparison to what we are spending out on their goods.... and meanwhile, as their revolutions build, they drive up the global cost of commodities as they become a competing consumer of them and also drive up demand... Everything from hops to oil.
True, however as they grow in economic strength and their standard of living increases, so does our national security. The more they make, the more they have to lose from a world war. Kind of like China, they are doing really well and would only go to war in the absolute worst of circumstances. How could the risk the prosperity that we indirectly provide. Obama just laid down some tire manufacting taffifs on them....We'll see how that goes, or how long it lasts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
True, but our standard of living is 10x what it was in 1950. You can't have growth if everything lasts forever. Somebody has to sell all this stuff.
You'll not get me to agree with that on the standard of living.
But think of the quality and quantity of foods and automobiles alone. Our food is so good, our cars are so nice, our technology is outstanding. Life is good. We work more and the stress of everyday life is higher, but there is a price to pay for this "quality". I guess it depends on your point of view, I guess. I'd rather be living in 2009 myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
I doubt discussions of heath care, Afghanistan, Iraq, energy needs, national security, and our environment are "frivolous" debates. Not all our Representives in Congress and the Senate are lying cheaters looking to screw everybody.
I'm not saying those are not important... but they are not as urgent.
Originally Posted by duster
The whole dang country is spending money they don't have, digging deeper in debt, and not making any goods anymore.
Not anymore. People are spending less than they have in years with a high personal savings rate. It's a problem for a strong recovery going forward.
People are already in debt, and people have stopped spending as much because they are not making as much, or anything at all, and do not have the disposable income for 'spending'... so they continue to stay in debt, making payments on what they need.
Agree, however people are not spending as much because of fear for thier jobs. Fear of debt is not so much anymore.....especially when they take a second mortgage (fixed) to pay for their kitchens, hot tubs, pools, corvettes, etc. It's a big problem for a recovery. How do we "recover" when there's so much general debt. It's ugly.
It's gotten to the point where a lot of household budgets can't spend anymore... they barely eat after the bills are paid... and institutions are not loaning them any more.
True
Those who have done well enough not to have to worry about this yet have cut spending also, fearing they will be in the same spot in the future.
True. It's the "conservatives" from both parties that will spend with reserve now. Big problem for a major recovery anytime soon. They're the smart ones.
Bottom line is, people have to have funding to spend in the first place, rather by earnings or loans... and that has been greatly reduced as a whole. So where does the recovery come in?
It doesn't. There will be no major recovery until the next "big thing" kicks in.....Not sure what that next big thing is, but it will happen in the next 10 years. Gunna be a long and slow recovery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
So not only is this economy weak, and in debt, but it is also SHRINKING at an alarming rate
Correct. Capitalism is based on endless and continued growth. There will be dips and plunges along the way.
What I am speaking of is actual currency LEAVING the country for goods, which takes it out of circulation in this country. And you know where the returning amounts end up.... in the hands of the rich that own/run the manufacturing they moved from the US to other countries.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
A country can not be a nation of consumers and stay in the black. Just like a checkbook, you have to MAKE something and put it in there, and consume less than you make.
You said earlier that the economy is weak.....but we can't be a nation of consumers. Our economy is based largely on consumption. That's why we live so well in relation to other nations. We can't all ride ATVs and drive nice pickup trucks AND be laborers in the mines. Our economy is mature and we don't manufacture as much as we used to. As economies mature they oursource more and import more. Who wants to make sox for 2 cents each. Not me.
Like it or not, that is what they tried to make us into... a nation of consumers, and we have spent our money on imported goods, and kind of done a good job of becoming a nation of consumers.
But now what? We continue to decline as our spending builds other countries up... and I guess we meet somewhere in between and maybe stabilize. Those days of 'living better' are slipping away.
Not for everybody. You just hope you're on the right side of employment equation. Unemployment is take care of the rest. We have been graced with low unemployment for years in this country. It's the bane of small business. There's nobody to do the crap work. There will be now.
Things are out of balance now, because we are not making and consuming enough of our own goods. They have done away with the manufacturing, which had a buy/sell loop back into the general economy. Instead, now that loop back has now been eliminated and re-routed.
This can change, but I don't think by huge amounts. People shop price unfortunately. Too busy or worried to be really educated consumers. I buy locally as much as possible and US made, I am in the minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
The real problem that is NEVER DISCUSSED in any political debates is the trade deficit. Want to bring down the budget deficit?... Well you gotta make more and spend less. Just spending less isn't going to bring your finances in check if you are not making anything. PERIOD.
See above.
Bottom line is we are not making much and selling much to ourselves and other nations. We are making little and buying a lot... which can't continue without eventually causing the system to decline and maybe go bust...
Don't totally agree. We make a lot, but buy more than we make. We are pretty much the most productive economy in the world. I don't want to make tube sox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
All they are doing is stuffing the pockets of the richest people in the country, and they are sharing some of that with our politicians... and meanwhile, we are all getting poorer.
Especially when the Republicans are giving those very same people major tax breaks and the remaining 98% of slobs are making up for their gain.
Both parties are catering to the rich... obviously... because they are the ones with the money to buy protection of their own interests in Washington... And both parties are glad to stuff their pockets with this legal bribe money.
True in a sense, but I not quite as cynical about our Representivites from either party. We live in a imperfect democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
We were supposed to have these trade agreements with these countries... under the premise that they would buy some of our goods
True. Big problem with China.
Yes, the worst of it is China... but there are also many others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
But the simple facts are, the people of these countries could afford NOTHING we made to begin with...... which cost us all of our jobs, and left us MAKING nothing anymore.
Not entirely true. There are lots of wealthy people that live in China and Russia buying our products. The largest buyer of civilian Hummers right now is in Iraq. As their economies grow they demand more, but it also increases costs for ourselves. Not sure if you drink beer, but have you noticed the increase in costs (not taxes) over the last few years? India is producing so many new middle class, they are buying beer like water and the cost of hops has gone through the roof. A six pack of Samuel Adams Lager is almost $8 right now from the hops increases.
True-true... But the big issues being these... we are fueling these other country's industrial revolution by exporting all of our manufacturing jobs there, and in turn buying those goods from them. And while they buy a few goods from us, it's but a speck in comparison to what we are spending out on their goods.... and meanwhile, as their revolutions build, they drive up the global cost of commodities as they become a competing consumer of them and also drive up demand... Everything from hops to oil.
True, however as they grow in economic strength and their standard of living increases, so does our national security. The more they make, the more they have to lose from a world war. Kind of like China, they are doing really well and would only go to war in the absolute worst of circumstances. How could the risk the prosperity that we indirectly provide. Obama just laid down some tire manufacting taffifs on them....We'll see how that goes, or how long it lasts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
And in the end, the goods now made in foreign countries that we still consume are not a d@mn bit cheaper than they were in the beginning. Instead they cost more, are lower quality, and have to be re-purchased more often.
True, but our standard of living is 10x what it was in 1950. You can't have growth if everything lasts forever. Somebody has to sell all this stuff.
You'll not get me to agree with that on the standard of living.
But think of the quality and quantity of foods and automobiles alone. Our food is so good, our cars are so nice, our technology is outstanding. Life is good. We work more and the stress of everyday life is higher, but there is a price to pay for this "quality". I guess it depends on your point of view, I guess. I'd rather be living in 2009 myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duster
Both say what their kind want to hear about frivolous issues during the debates to pull your strings, get your contributions, and get your votes... and then they go to capitol hill and DO whatever they need to in order to repay the favors of their major contributors... and whatever else gets them richer while in office.
I doubt discussions of heath care, Afghanistan, Iraq, energy needs, national security, and our environment are "frivolous" debates. Not all our Representives in Congress and the Senate are lying cheaters looking to screw everybody.
I'm not saying those are not important... but they are not as urgent.
#19
09-15-2009, 07:57 AM
Super Moderator
Well, golly JimBob!
Well, golly JimBob!
Constitutionally speaking, there is only one thing that taxes were leveed for; national defense. It's ironic to me that we spent 3 billion on Cash for Clunkers for a 350 million return in savings on oil and gas but we won't spend on requested national defense programs. It's one example of waste. I'm not fond of excessive government spending. I am fond of giving the best of our technologies to our soldiers who are on the front lines. I don't want them to have to fight a fair fight. I want them to be able to keep those that would harm innocent civilians from doing it again and then come home.
#20
09-15-2009, 10:40 PM
Constitutionally speaking, there is only one thing that taxes were leveed for; national defense. It's ironic to me that we spent 3 billion on Cash for Clunkers for a 350 million return in savings on oil and gas but we won't spend on requested national defense programs. It's one example of waste. I'm not fond of excessive government spending. I am fond of giving the best of our technologies to our soldiers who are on the front lines. I don't want them to have to fight a fair fight. I want them to be able to keep those that would harm innocent civilians from doing it again and then come home.