Most children are not raised by same sex couples, and I have yet to see a study show that children raised by same sex couples are more likely to commit crimes etc. So in my mind, that is mostly assumption. Unless you've read something I haven't, in which case I'd love to read it.

With all due respect, I think that a lot of the problems you point out (notably, crime) are just as likely to be caused by the society we live in rather than God. Plenty of evidence shows that income inequality leads to crime. Now I'm not pinning crime entirely on income inequality, but I am saying that there are plenty of worldly explanations for the problems we face. I think you jump to God's wrath as the cause when there are plenty of things we could do to improve the situation devoid of God.

http://financesonline.com/how-income...s-crime-rates/

 

You're working on a belief system as much as me. Communistic and socialistic systems have imploded time and time again. Most of these systems were responsible for millions of people being killed in order for the communistic rulers to have their way. And when you try to impose this system on free men and women they WILL resist. We talked about the different systems for pages and I don't want to get into again. I have life experience on my side and you have some reading on yours. We'll see what happens.

This country was founded on Christian principles. I believe I sited dozens of examples about the Founding Fathers beliefs somewhere in this thread. It has worked but now we're trying to get away from that and going down the tubes. 17 trillion dollars of debt???? How do you pay that off???? And George W. Bush was responsible for 4 trillion of that! We have divorce rates that are about 50%. Kids growing up without one of their parents around lose out on having the example of both a man and a woman in their lives. I've read dozens of studies on crime in the past. Two main factors come up when you get down to the bottom of it. Broken families and poor educations. I guess you can make the income inequality argument here because, typically, families without one of the parents around are not as well off as a family where both adults are working. You've taken one of the wage earners out of the equation. These are facts that you'll have to take my word on it that I read. I don't have the information available to me right now. Income inequality is the argument I hear most for taking, through coercion and threat of force, money from one person and giving it to another. It's theft when it comes down to it. Teach these people some marketable skills and they can earn a good wage if we don't continue losing jobs to over-regulation and punitive taxes like Obummercare.

When it comes down to it we can turn to God, seek His face, and turn from our wicked ways, and He will hear our prayers, and heal our land; or we will turn our backs on Him and he'll leave us to our own demise.

 

On the same sex couples thing, it's completely abnormal. It hasn't been around long enough to get samples of how that grand social experiment is going. Millennium have passed and what works is, and has always been, a loving mother and father, teaching their children right from wrong, protecting them, and providing for their needs. This is love at its best. It's the same relationship I have with my Heavenly Father. Does He make everything fields and flowers? Nope. Some, like me, are a little stubborn (okay, a lot) and need life's lessons dealt in a firmer manner. So, God lets trials come my way and I learn how to get through them and am stronger for it. My earthly mom and dad mirrored this relationship very well and I'm now thankful for it though I didn't necessarily see it that way when I was younger.

Again, when we experiment, to our detriment, and basically shake our fist at God, it's we who lose out. That's what I believe and have seen over the past few decades.

 

this I Will have to disagree with you on. I think it's been tried in history and FAILED immensely.
Sodom & Gomorrah
Rome (Nero)
and more....utter failure an desolation.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah as spoken of in the bible is a far cry from historically accurate text. As for Nero, plenty of psychotic individuals have been raised at the hands of heterosexual parents, so one example from history (I'm not even sure Nero was raised by homosexuals?) proves nothing.

Moose, " When it comes down to it we can turn to God, seek His face, and turn from our wicked ways, and He will hear our prayers, and heal our land; or we will turn our backs on Him and he'll leave us to our own demise."

this is what I mean. Are you saying that if we turn to God, that 17 trillion dollars in debt will disappear? Isn't it more likely that that debt has been accumulated as a result of trying to fund an imperialist war machine in the 21st century, which is constantly in and out of wars? Even if you don't believe the United States is an imperialist nation, it's still more likely that that debt is completely worldly. God doesn't care, and I guarantee you that no matter how hard you pray, that number won't go down simply because you pray for it. Nor will countless species of animals stop going extinct, nor glaciers will stop melting, nor will our air get cleaner. Faith such as that is something I simply do not have.

"It hasn't been around long enough to get samples of how that grand social experiment is going"

You said yourself it's too early to tell how it's going. For all we know, the children of same sex couples could grow up to be absolute saints. We can't know. For now, all that's important to me is that parents love their kids, and I know homosexuals aren't short on love, so I'm fine with it.

I've said it before, never has Communism been given a fair shake on this Earth. The systems that have grown under the guise of Communism are certainly state-oriented (not communism).

You are correct when you say I am biased because of my belief system, however my belief system doesn't include a God that punishes me for disagreeing with him. My belief system provides no punishment for leaving it, yours does. Also, I expressed the opinion that most of the problems you say are because of our lack of faith in/love for God are much more likely caused by irresponsible behavior on the part of our leaders, and corporate owners... and to a lesser extent, everyday people making poor decisions. You can't provide me any evidence that God had a hand in any of it. I can provide you evidence our problems are entirely worldly.

Capitalism has killed more through starvation and war than Communism ever will. At least in Communist society needs such as food, clothing and shelter would be met. That saves countless lives in and of itself.

So we agree that most crime is the result of poverty, and all the terrible things that come with it?

 

I never said psychotic people weren't raised by heterosexuals but it remains that most criminals come from broken homes.

I think if we, as a nation, turn back to God, we might see our nation prosper again, and might see deficits coming down as people take care of their neighbors rather than government. The largest part of the government spending now is on entitlement programs. It isn't how our country was meant to be. Until Roosevelt there weren't these handout programs. We keep handing out money that we honestly don't have. It would be like me being in debt and buying a new car every week. It's just not going to work. Praying has worked many times and I've seen enough evidence in my personal life that there are things that couldn't be solved in the natural that got solved miraculously through prayer. My contention is that a massive turning back to God could have massive results.

Again, the model for our continuance, even in the natural, is a father and mother nurturing children. For all of peoples' flaws it is and continues to be what works. When you pervert what is natural you get unnatural results. If homosexuality had been the norm before artificial insemination we would have died off very quickly. It's only in recent times that we allow this type of adoption.

Communistic systems are responsible for over 100 million people in their own countries being killed. Sounds swell. And, if you disagree with those leaders or dare try to have faith they'll put you in jail. Our capitalistic society gives more money in charity than any country on Earth and we also send more aid to impoverished nations than any other nation on Earth. Be it food, manpower, or financial aid.

We've discussed the whole collectivism thing ad nauseam. It would only work if everyone had the same mindset as you do. That is, everyone would have to agree to not make money for whatever work they do, and everyone would be provided for. That is opposed to having the opportunity to getting an education, working hard, and making a good living. That's your food, shelter, and clothing that you have worked for. Time and time again it's been proven if you don't reward people financially for doing a job that's difficult or that no one else wants to do, people won't do those jobs. Instead, you'll have (and we do have now) people living off others' works because they've grown used to handouts without contributing themselves. As my sister in law who escaped Czechoslovakia when it was under communist control said, "They pretended to pay us, and we pretended to work". It eventually crumbles. We have taken a system where people work hard, and can reap the rewards of working hard and we've made almost 50% of this country reliant on the government for some kind of handout. It's been a failure and will always be a failure. It used to be transitional assistance, now it's people telling their kids and grandkids, how to live off the government. The trouble is there would be no government without hard working Americans sending in their tax dollars. There is no such thing as a free government program. Anytime you hear, "I got free this or that...", means the government has taken your money and thrown it somewhere. If you are able bodied and you are unwilling to work and decide to live off the government, you are stealing from your neighbors who are trying to make ends meet. Most families I know have both spouses working as the government continues spending like money grows on trees. Someday, the people we owe are going to ask for payment.

Poverty is a big part of crime. Yes. But, it's not solved by throwing other peoples' money at it. It's solved by teaching them a marketable skill and enabling them to produce, through their toils, their own wealth. If they just don't feel like working they can be taught by one of life's best teachers, difficulty and failure.

I'm done. I don't want to type anymore. I think I've made my self clear enough on the subject matter. Someday we all die. I guess we'll learn there whether or not God is real. He's showed Himself to me. I pray He shows Himself to you. If I'm wrong, I'll have "wasted" my years helping others and trying to love others as myself. If you're wrong it's a bad eternity. I'll take my chances. I don't have anything to lose except those things that are harmful to the people around me.

 

"[T]he more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer ... [taking] away from before their eyes the greatest of all inducements to industry, frugality, and sobriety, by giving them a dependence of somewhat else than a careful accumulation during youth and health for support in age and sickness." --Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn, and Management of the Poor

 

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams, Address to the Military, 1798

 

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice." --Thomas Paine, Letter Addressed to the Addressers on the Late Proclamation, 1792

 

Comedian Argus Hamilton: "Obama was lectured by Uruguay president Jose Mujica in front of reporters about the need for him to close Guantanamo prison. If Obama really wants to close it he should turn it into a government-financed solar company. The doors will be shut in a month."