Your favorite riding partner?
Dec 26, 2000 | 12:21 PM
#31
Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 351
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Greetings
In the words of Benjamin, most arguments come down to "it is so, it is not so." But there have been a lot of thought provoking points made here and, after thinking about this a while, here's some more random thoughts/questions on the subject.
A lot of people have made the point about what can happen out in the wild (and yes, there are a couple of murders in our National Parks each year) -- but how many of you have actually had a hostile incident when out on the trail. Aside from the wild dog situation, I don't think there have been any accounts of attack on the trail.
Once every few years, a real motorcycle gang rolls into our valley for a camp out -- I suspect they are the Pagens which operate out of southeastern PA. Of course no one messes with them, and interestingly, they don't mess with us. Out in the country, everyone assumes everyone else is armed and mutual respect becomes a habit. While a newcomer might call it fear, its really isn't, its just a long-standing habit of minding your own business.
We sometimes go to town to a roadside bar, the County Line Inn -- you know the place: deer heads on the wall, pool table, bullet hole in the men's room door, etc. It has three entrances -- they are all open. Now consider your local yuppie bar (e.g. Bennigans) or family resturant (e.g. Olive Garden). One way in or out, and they guard it like the gate at Ft. Knox. At the County Line, I'll bet 90% of the people have a gun in the car and I'll guarantee you that there are guns behind the bar, yet people come and go as they please and, despite drinking way too much Rolling Rock, everyone behaves himself. Is it the guns, is it in spite of the guns, is there a sociologist in the house?
Last Friday night I was sitting at the table in my cabin doing a littel paperwork while watching it sleet and freeze out the window. A Bronco comes spinning down the road and pulls into my driveway until his tires start to spin. He stops and flashes his lights on me through the cabin window -- high/low, off/on -- a few times. Then he backs out and continues down the road a little too fast for conditions. Threat, mistake, signal, confusion, or what -- you make the call. But after dark in the woods, its not a good feeling. Having a gun around offered some assurance, but you wouldn't want to start shooting at the guy right away (could have been an honest mistake of some sort) and a protracted battle with him and a couple of friends in the truck could have a been a losing proposition from the start.
OK, one more random item: how safe is it to carry a pistol on your ATV given the beating everthing takes on the trail. I've opened my rack pack after a morning of riding and found two coke cans scraped silver by the aggitation of the ride. Can you really count on your safety to hold through a rough ride? Maybe so, I just wonder.
End of screed.
In the words of Benjamin, most arguments come down to "it is so, it is not so." But there have been a lot of thought provoking points made here and, after thinking about this a while, here's some more random thoughts/questions on the subject.
A lot of people have made the point about what can happen out in the wild (and yes, there are a couple of murders in our National Parks each year) -- but how many of you have actually had a hostile incident when out on the trail. Aside from the wild dog situation, I don't think there have been any accounts of attack on the trail.
Once every few years, a real motorcycle gang rolls into our valley for a camp out -- I suspect they are the Pagens which operate out of southeastern PA. Of course no one messes with them, and interestingly, they don't mess with us. Out in the country, everyone assumes everyone else is armed and mutual respect becomes a habit. While a newcomer might call it fear, its really isn't, its just a long-standing habit of minding your own business.
We sometimes go to town to a roadside bar, the County Line Inn -- you know the place: deer heads on the wall, pool table, bullet hole in the men's room door, etc. It has three entrances -- they are all open. Now consider your local yuppie bar (e.g. Bennigans) or family resturant (e.g. Olive Garden). One way in or out, and they guard it like the gate at Ft. Knox. At the County Line, I'll bet 90% of the people have a gun in the car and I'll guarantee you that there are guns behind the bar, yet people come and go as they please and, despite drinking way too much Rolling Rock, everyone behaves himself. Is it the guns, is it in spite of the guns, is there a sociologist in the house?
Last Friday night I was sitting at the table in my cabin doing a littel paperwork while watching it sleet and freeze out the window. A Bronco comes spinning down the road and pulls into my driveway until his tires start to spin. He stops and flashes his lights on me through the cabin window -- high/low, off/on -- a few times. Then he backs out and continues down the road a little too fast for conditions. Threat, mistake, signal, confusion, or what -- you make the call. But after dark in the woods, its not a good feeling. Having a gun around offered some assurance, but you wouldn't want to start shooting at the guy right away (could have been an honest mistake of some sort) and a protracted battle with him and a couple of friends in the truck could have a been a losing proposition from the start.
OK, one more random item: how safe is it to carry a pistol on your ATV given the beating everthing takes on the trail. I've opened my rack pack after a morning of riding and found two coke cans scraped silver by the aggitation of the ride. Can you really count on your safety to hold through a rough ride? Maybe so, I just wonder.
End of screed.
Dec 26, 2000 | 12:31 PM
#32
Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Greetings,
A thought about the low crime rate due to universal military service (e.g. Switzerland). This produces a low crime rate for a very practical reason -- the people most likely to commit crimes are under close control at the age at which they are most likely to commit them.
Think about it, most crimes are commited by 16 to 22 year olds. If you sweep up all the idle teenagers on America's streets and ship them behind the gates of Ft. Swampy for a couple of years, they aren't roaming around your neighborhood getting into trouble. And, surprise surprise, they aren't frequently engaging in acts that result in illigitimate babies -- in short, they are out of circulation. Then add to this the fact that a lot of directionless kids are given some structure, discipline, sense of responsibility, and training -- and you've gone a long way to taking a bite out of crime.
A thought about the low crime rate due to universal military service (e.g. Switzerland). This produces a low crime rate for a very practical reason -- the people most likely to commit crimes are under close control at the age at which they are most likely to commit them.
Think about it, most crimes are commited by 16 to 22 year olds. If you sweep up all the idle teenagers on America's streets and ship them behind the gates of Ft. Swampy for a couple of years, they aren't roaming around your neighborhood getting into trouble. And, surprise surprise, they aren't frequently engaging in acts that result in illigitimate babies -- in short, they are out of circulation. Then add to this the fact that a lot of directionless kids are given some structure, discipline, sense of responsibility, and training -- and you've gone a long way to taking a bite out of crime.
Dec 26, 2000 | 05:41 PM
#33
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 483
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Tree Farmer,
No, they do not teach that in the Texas Concealed Handgun course. And it's been a long time since I have read the laws regarding "theft" and "justified shootings". If someone tries to steal something from you and surrenders, then NO you can NOT shoot them. However, if someone is stealing your stuff and there is a reasonable certainty that you will not recover it (i.e. that they are not going to drop your stuff and run) then YES, that is considered a justified shooting in Texas. You state something about Police officers shooting to stop the thief. The law I refer to applies to the property owner, which gives them the right to shoot to stop the thief if there is a reasonable certainty that the thief will make off with their stuff if they don't.
I quote "Yet, I understand you to say you would not exercise your right to take a human life if another alternative were available. Why not?" Since this is an atv site, let's use my atv as an example. If a thief were stealing my atv there is no reason for me to shoot him dead because I DO have another alternative. It's called insurance. They can make off with my atv, insurance company pays me off and I go out and buy myself another one.
I personally will ALWAYS try to find an alternative means other than pulling my weapon. I'll apologize to someone, say I'm sorry a million times. I'll run if I can, I'll try to do some fast talking, whatever it takes not to kill someone. But I will also always have my gun to back me up. Case in point. Several years back I had a supervisory night job, checking up on sweeper truck drivers. Those guys that clean parking lots. Anyway, I was checking up on one of the drivers while he was cleaning one lot. There was a guy on the pay phone that became very irate due to the noise that the sweeping truck was making. Next thing I know is this guy is pulling out a .38 Special. Only thing that saved my life that night was the fact I had my gun pointed at his head before he could get a sight on me and him blurting out "It's cool man.....it's cool". As you see, I found myself with NO viable alternatives. And if the guy wouldn't of said what he said and continued to level off his gun I would of been FORCED to kill him. And that my friend would of been justified, and I would of been able to sleep at night because I tried to defuse the situation.
Bottom line, I see only three reasons to have a gun.
1) hunting
2) recreation (i.e. target shooting)
3) Protection
And ANYONE using a gun for ANY of these reasons should also take it upon theirselves to ensure they do so RESPONSIBALLY
No, they do not teach that in the Texas Concealed Handgun course. And it's been a long time since I have read the laws regarding "theft" and "justified shootings". If someone tries to steal something from you and surrenders, then NO you can NOT shoot them. However, if someone is stealing your stuff and there is a reasonable certainty that you will not recover it (i.e. that they are not going to drop your stuff and run) then YES, that is considered a justified shooting in Texas. You state something about Police officers shooting to stop the thief. The law I refer to applies to the property owner, which gives them the right to shoot to stop the thief if there is a reasonable certainty that the thief will make off with their stuff if they don't.
I quote "Yet, I understand you to say you would not exercise your right to take a human life if another alternative were available. Why not?" Since this is an atv site, let's use my atv as an example. If a thief were stealing my atv there is no reason for me to shoot him dead because I DO have another alternative. It's called insurance. They can make off with my atv, insurance company pays me off and I go out and buy myself another one.
I personally will ALWAYS try to find an alternative means other than pulling my weapon. I'll apologize to someone, say I'm sorry a million times. I'll run if I can, I'll try to do some fast talking, whatever it takes not to kill someone. But I will also always have my gun to back me up. Case in point. Several years back I had a supervisory night job, checking up on sweeper truck drivers. Those guys that clean parking lots. Anyway, I was checking up on one of the drivers while he was cleaning one lot. There was a guy on the pay phone that became very irate due to the noise that the sweeping truck was making. Next thing I know is this guy is pulling out a .38 Special. Only thing that saved my life that night was the fact I had my gun pointed at his head before he could get a sight on me and him blurting out "It's cool man.....it's cool". As you see, I found myself with NO viable alternatives. And if the guy wouldn't of said what he said and continued to level off his gun I would of been FORCED to kill him. And that my friend would of been justified, and I would of been able to sleep at night because I tried to defuse the situation.
Bottom line, I see only three reasons to have a gun.
1) hunting
2) recreation (i.e. target shooting)
3) Protection
And ANYONE using a gun for ANY of these reasons should also take it upon theirselves to ensure they do so RESPONSIBALLY
Dec 26, 2000 | 05:45 PM
#34
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Xplor,
I don't have the paranoia of running into a crazed two legged animal. In fact, the odds of it happening is low. But people do carry weapons, and sometimes people drink while carrying weapons which does not make for a very good combination. Nonetheless, I DO pack just in case. Just like a carry extra oil, water and gas....."just in case"
p.s. if pointing my quad in the other direction and hitting the gas is a viable solution, you better believe that's what I would be doing.
I don't have the paranoia of running into a crazed two legged animal. In fact, the odds of it happening is low. But people do carry weapons, and sometimes people drink while carrying weapons which does not make for a very good combination. Nonetheless, I DO pack just in case. Just like a carry extra oil, water and gas....."just in case"
p.s. if pointing my quad in the other direction and hitting the gas is a viable solution, you better believe that's what I would be doing.
Dec 26, 2000 | 05:56 PM
#35
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 483
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GreenRuby,
You bring up some very good points. And I just wanted to comment on some of them. Yes, you are so CORRECT regarding the media. They make it sound like it's much worse than it actually is out there.
I do want to bring up a real life scenario that happened here just a few years ago in Spring, Tx. That's just 1/2 hour north of Houston. There were some people riding Cypress Creek one Saturday night. When riding the creek, you have to cross it about every 1/4 - 1/2 mile. Anyway, at one of these crossing there were a bunch of teens out partying. As one guy crossed the creek one of the teens told him he had to pay a $5 toll crossing. The guy refused. Next thing you know that teen pulls a gun on the guy and shoots him dead. Reason? Because the teen was drunk, stupid and wanted a $5 toll fee.
And anyone doing any night riding (which I LOVE to do) are more likely to run across the nut cases than when riding during the day.
You bring up some very good points. And I just wanted to comment on some of them. Yes, you are so CORRECT regarding the media. They make it sound like it's much worse than it actually is out there.
I do want to bring up a real life scenario that happened here just a few years ago in Spring, Tx. That's just 1/2 hour north of Houston. There were some people riding Cypress Creek one Saturday night. When riding the creek, you have to cross it about every 1/4 - 1/2 mile. Anyway, at one of these crossing there were a bunch of teens out partying. As one guy crossed the creek one of the teens told him he had to pay a $5 toll crossing. The guy refused. Next thing you know that teen pulls a gun on the guy and shoots him dead. Reason? Because the teen was drunk, stupid and wanted a $5 toll fee.
And anyone doing any night riding (which I LOVE to do) are more likely to run across the nut cases than when riding during the day.
Dec 26, 2000 | 05:58 PM
#36
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 483
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Diogenes
You also bring up a very good point. Carrying a weapon doesn't mean jack. A gun will NOT scare off the person. If one feels the need to carry a weapon, they also should take the responsibility in learning how to use it, when to use it and how to avoid using it.
You also bring up a very good point. Carrying a weapon doesn't mean jack. A gun will NOT scare off the person. If one feels the need to carry a weapon, they also should take the responsibility in learning how to use it, when to use it and how to avoid using it.
Dec 29, 2000 | 04:03 PM
#37
Pro Rider
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 439
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GreenRuby (and BLH!), you make excessively erroneous assumptions regarding my "liberal" point of view and my opinions regarding firearms ownership.
In point of fact, I'm a Life Member of the NRA, Life Member of the Police Marksman Association, certified pistol instructor by both organizations, holder of an Excellence in Competition ("Leg") badge earned with a US Pistol, Caliber .45 M1911A1 (US Army), National Matches competitor at Camp Perry, Ohio, and . . . need I go on? Regardless, this resume' is irrelevant regarding my beliefs concerning responsible firearms ownership.
Your "liberal" brush tars a wide swath. Call me liberal if you must because I believe the only justifiable use of deadly force by an armed civilian is unavoidable and imminent threat of death or serious injury to the innocent; further, that one should be aware of the legal and responsible aspects of employment of deadly force and competent in marksmanship and safety if he chooses to carry a firearm.
With all due respect to your training as a member of the Shipboard Security Team and on military cover and concealment, combat handgun techniques and the legal/tactical environment of an armed civilian suggest another context you may want to examine for the purpose of enhancing your own survival and safety.
Diogenes
In point of fact, I'm a Life Member of the NRA, Life Member of the Police Marksman Association, certified pistol instructor by both organizations, holder of an Excellence in Competition ("Leg") badge earned with a US Pistol, Caliber .45 M1911A1 (US Army), National Matches competitor at Camp Perry, Ohio, and . . . need I go on? Regardless, this resume' is irrelevant regarding my beliefs concerning responsible firearms ownership.
Your "liberal" brush tars a wide swath. Call me liberal if you must because I believe the only justifiable use of deadly force by an armed civilian is unavoidable and imminent threat of death or serious injury to the innocent; further, that one should be aware of the legal and responsible aspects of employment of deadly force and competent in marksmanship and safety if he chooses to carry a firearm.
With all due respect to your training as a member of the Shipboard Security Team and on military cover and concealment, combat handgun techniques and the legal/tactical environment of an armed civilian suggest another context you may want to examine for the purpose of enhancing your own survival and safety.
Diogenes
Dec 29, 2000 | 11:15 PM
#38
Thread Starter
|
Trailblazer
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 57
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Was there something I said that indicated that I am an irresponsible gun owner?
What part of what I have shared here is irresponsible? Do you believe that riding while carrying is irresponsible?
Do you think that you, in all of your infinite wisdom, are the only responsible soul who carries a weapon? Do you think that all of the training you have had is necessary to have a healthy respect for human life? What do you picture here, I'm not talking about getting my chest all puffed up doing Dirty Harry impressions on the trails.
Why be an NRA Lifetime Member when the only person who you think can handle a gun is you? You don't need the NRA for that. Get the he|| off your high horse and lose the holier than thou attitude, Diogenes. You are no better than anyone else, big guy!
What part of what I have shared here is irresponsible? Do you believe that riding while carrying is irresponsible?
Do you think that you, in all of your infinite wisdom, are the only responsible soul who carries a weapon? Do you think that all of the training you have had is necessary to have a healthy respect for human life? What do you picture here, I'm not talking about getting my chest all puffed up doing Dirty Harry impressions on the trails.
Why be an NRA Lifetime Member when the only person who you think can handle a gun is you? You don't need the NRA for that. Get the he|| off your high horse and lose the holier than thou attitude, Diogenes. You are no better than anyone else, big guy!
Dec 29, 2000 | 11:57 PM
#39
Pro Rider
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 297
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Diogenes
I wrote in the other post and accused you of having liberal views. This was not intended to be an insult, and I did not intend to start a war. Your views are thought out and you appear to be very qualified to make the judgments you do. I was rash in judgment. I was only trying to convey my dismay at individuals that seem to turn every situation into the fault of the victim. It appeared to me that this was your intent, I realize that was not the case. But I take the people of this forum and people in general at their word. If they say they carry for protection, I believe them, and I assume they are qualified. If a gun were needed I believe that it would be an ABSOLUTE last resort for anyone. I do not take taking a life lightly, and I don’t believe anyone else does either. You say, “if the group is better armed”, I don’t understand that reference. I don’t what bearing that would have. If they were armed or not armed, the group could take your quad. While I agree that my quad is not worth taking a life, I am reassured being armed myself that my life is at least a somewhat more protected than without.
You all realize that this whole conversation is academic, the odds are very remote indeed that any of these scenarios would ever play out. But that one in a million chance is the same reason that we all buy life insurance and play the lottery.
Again I mean you no disrespect, as I’m sure you don’t. GreenRuby, we all seem to have the same pint of view, were just getting to it from different angles…
I wrote in the other post and accused you of having liberal views. This was not intended to be an insult, and I did not intend to start a war. Your views are thought out and you appear to be very qualified to make the judgments you do. I was rash in judgment. I was only trying to convey my dismay at individuals that seem to turn every situation into the fault of the victim. It appeared to me that this was your intent, I realize that was not the case. But I take the people of this forum and people in general at their word. If they say they carry for protection, I believe them, and I assume they are qualified. If a gun were needed I believe that it would be an ABSOLUTE last resort for anyone. I do not take taking a life lightly, and I don’t believe anyone else does either. You say, “if the group is better armed”, I don’t understand that reference. I don’t what bearing that would have. If they were armed or not armed, the group could take your quad. While I agree that my quad is not worth taking a life, I am reassured being armed myself that my life is at least a somewhat more protected than without.
You all realize that this whole conversation is academic, the odds are very remote indeed that any of these scenarios would ever play out. But that one in a million chance is the same reason that we all buy life insurance and play the lottery.
Again I mean you no disrespect, as I’m sure you don’t. GreenRuby, we all seem to have the same pint of view, were just getting to it from different angles…
Dec 30, 2000 | 12:12 AM
#40
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,392
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Why carry a gun when you can just run whatever it is that makes you intimatedated over with your quad?? Me personally do not carry any kind of weapon on the trails, of corse a 160lb 6'3 whiteboy can of whooop-aZZ flaling arms and legs if you mess with my ride.. I live in the sticks in Maine and hardly ever see larger animals in the woods, nevermind ones that could/would hurt you, I dont believe that Ive ever seen anything physically daunting minus the dude riding beside me... Instead of the gun mabe pack a first aid kit, matches, tools, anything that you might actually use.....