Well a car is not designed to be controlled with body English, that is why you it in seat with a seat belt and a roll cage or roof........You are a DRIVER or a PASSENGER.....

ATVs are designed to be controlled by the body, you are a RIDER...this is why you lean, and stand up, and hang off the side if needed.....all designed to counter act body roll.......

A motorcycle leans on its axis, so that lean is what counteracts the inertia that would pull it over.

A 250 pound person can easily influence a 400 pound machine, they can toss it around no problem...... even on up to a 600 pound machine, the human body can have some influence on it.....the bigger the machine the bigger he body needed to influence it....Which is why kids should not ride big machines, it has nothing to do with skills.

A 700-800 pound machine is just too big..... If it starts to roll or flip, a 250 pound body is not enough to stop that machine from continuing its momentum. Remember an object in motion remains in motion until acted on by an outside force. And that motion can be in any direction.

If you are on a 400 pound machine that starts bucking and bouncing, proper body position can stop it or end it before it starts. If an 800 pound machine starts bucking it will toss you off like a bug. Our bodies are just not large enough to have an real effect. You can lean forward up a steep hill on an 800 pound machine, but the reality is in the eyes of physics you are having very little effect on whether or not that machine flips.

If a car flips over on you, there is a roof, and again a seat with a seat belt...... If an ATV flips over on you, you had better be able to get it off. Again a 400-500 pound machine won't keep a 250 pound man under it. But that same 250 pound man would have one heck of a time pulling an 800 pound machine off himself.

I'm glad you like the power of your XP, but the power is not the issue. 70hp is fine, but 800 pounds is just too heavy..... If the 850 had 70hp and weighed 650 pounds imagine how much faster it would be.

 

SS: I own an XP. I weigh about 180lbs. I can control the action of the beast without a problem (in the situations I've encountered). Now, is that in all situations where the machine is out of control and headed for a tree?.....Don't think so, but I certainly have leverage when I hang off the sides and lean back. I have quite a bit of control over what it does. You just have ride in control and like a person with a brain. Drinking and riding is a recipe for disaster.....but that's a whole different discussion.

It depends on how far out of control it is and how strong the rider is. I do agree on the steep roll-over backwards part, but that goes with most any ATV. If you hit something too steep at too fast a speed and it starts to go over on top of you, it's hard to control, if not impossible. However, side to side and steep decents are much more controllable situations, even on a 850XP with a 180lb rider. -The fact that you can get out and exert leverage makes a big difference. I understand what you're saying though in a broad sense.

 

It is not that you don't have the skill or the strength. I trust you are probably a great rider and a very strong 180 pounds. But at some point the physics takes over and it becomes humanly impossible to control. Someone 300 pounds will have a little more influence but still not enough as compared to a 200 pound man on a 400 pound ATV...... Obviously in order to equal the masses the rider of an 800 pound machine would need to weigh 400 pounds, that would equal the ratio.

Now don't get me wrong, there are times when a 400 pound sport machine, combined with speed, can become too much for a 180 pound rider to handle also. That threshold will exist in any configuration.

The problem is that the threshold is tipped in the ATV's favor at much slower speeds, and in more normal conditions when the machine is 800 pounds. When combined with the fact that these 800 pound machines can cover ground on par with a 400 pound 450cc machine makes them far more dangerous.

This is not to say that a bigger ATV is more dangerous by itself, obviously it is the rider and the conditions in which they are used. But in the past few years as they keep getting bigger, more people keep getting crushed in low speed accidents.

And its not so much the people here, most of us are serious and responsible ATV riders who know the limits of ourselves and our ATVs... But we are the exception to the rule. Most people just want BIGGER AND BADDER for the sake of bragging about it, they have not the skills nor ability to handle these ATVs. They have no concept of the responsibility they are taking on when they swing a leg over an 800 pound 70hp monster.

Last year there were 29 ATV deaths in NY state. This does not include UTVs.

Of those deaths I was able to collect info on 25 of them. I do this for a long term study I'm doing in cooperation (UTVs are not part) with a few other people. Of the 25 I have data on, 21 of them were people killed on Utility ATVs. Of that 21, 14 were crush deaths where the ATV rolled and killed the person at relatively low speeds. Of those 14, 11 of them were big bore Polaris ATVs, 2 were Arctic Cats, and 1 was a Can-Am. The 7 other deaths were children under 16 riding on full sized Utility ATV of various bore. The vast majority of these people were described as casual riders. Of them all only ONE was considered by his family to be an avid ATV enthusiast.

Of the 4 deaths on sport machines, 2 were on a Raptor 660, 1 was a Honda 400ex, and 1 was a Banshee. 1 of the 660 deaths was a DWI, one had no helmet. The 400ex rider hit a truck crossing a road and the Banshee rider again had no helmet was hit head on by a rider on a 450r who was injured but not killed. Again all 4 were considered "casual riders" by their friends and family.

Of the data my other researchers have collected, it is all very similar. We are seeing an increase in deaths over the past 5 years on Utility ATVs. The spike in line with the heavy big bores is totally obvious. This is why there are people starting to voice their concerns over the size battle. There are legitimate fears that there will be another anti-ATV backlash coming. We started this study as a defense of ATV riders, but we've learned there are a lot of stupid ones out there who are hurting the sport with irresponsible behavior.... I know, shocking...humans misusing something? Wow that never happens...lol.... But seriously my hope is that the manufacturers will stop the madness at some point. I think we've reach our maximum size at this point. We are bumping up against the edge.

 

i agree with this. for the most part.

 

I'd have to agree as well. There are limits on these machines for both safety and environmental reasons, and the manufacturers (not just Polaris) are pushing these limits. I wouldn't expect states to change their laws because someone went and built a bigger, badder ATV without first making sure it would be legal to use. The blame for this should go on Polaris and no one else. I find it hard to believe a company like Polaris would invest millions in research and development to build these things and not make sure they would be legal to use everywhere they want to sell them. If they want to sell these machines, they need to go back to the drawing board and make the machine legal, not try and get laws changed.

 

You can register in MN as ans ATV, but the rules are that 800cc and less are a class 1 vehicle. If it is over 800cc it is considered a class 2 and may be restricted on some trails. No matter how you look at it it sucks. Hopefully the rules can be updated. Otherwise I guess I'll be buying a new Grizzly.(Not that I'm looking to change)

 

I agree whole heartedly with this statement!

 

So a 10" rim with a 27" tire is OK,but a 14" rim with a 25" tires is not? LOL

 

It's not really about tire size, it's about size of the vehicle. I think someone said it earlier in the thread, but the 12" wheel limit was put in place to keep larger vehicles off the trails. If you think of something like a Suzuki Samurai, it would probably meet most of the criteria of an ATV except wheel size.

If Polaris would just make the XPs with 12" wheels, they would be legal in WI and the problem would be solved.

 

Well, I do not like the legislation, although I do not live in such a state, or own an XP or want to.


But at the same time, I do indeed agree with some of the other guys. There has to be a limit somewhere, and in my opinion it was passed a long time ago.

I think it has already gone to far in size and weight.
A lot of them are already beyond ATV's to me.

I don't see the point... I think many of you may as well have just gotten a jeep or something.
I mean when it gets to the point where you try to put it in a truck bed and its slam full and the tailgate won't close... Well, like I said, I don't see the point. May as well just drive your truck on into the trails.

Anyways, I still think this sucks for owners and I do not agree with the legislation.
But I do agree that there has to be a limit somewhere.

I think it should be size and weight based though...
I don't see where rim size should matter... tire size makes more sense.

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As for the separate issue of deaths, I am not surprised most were on a Polaris. In fact, I would not be surprised if they are the overall leader in deaths.

The bottom line is that any rank beginner idiot can push a gear lever, push a thumb throttle and hit the trails with pretty quick confidence. They are easy to ride, which lets the most likely people to get hurt to get themselves into deadly situations easily. Plus they are all pretty heavy and do not brake all that well either.

I've already been down that road with my Polaris Sport 400. Probably happened within a month of getting it. Luckily no one was severely injured and my quad survived.