I thought Prism is a re-skinned Toyota Corolla. Regardless, quality hasn't been an issue for me. I believe thier quality of late is better. My personal issues have more to do with looks and feel. The Impala is hideous, the Malibu is fugly, the GTO is a waste of a GREAT motor, the interiors in many of the trucks look cheap. I could go on and on. On the positive side and I have mentioned it before, the Solstice is awsome looking (but under powered), the Vette is a phenominal machine, and the Caddys have come a long way.

What kind of dum argument is this. Have you ever looked at the butt ugly Honda Element? How about the toyota Prius. And the technology in the Prius is not economically viable. It seems to me that every automaker has some ugly vehicles. I could go on and on about the off-shore autos, but this is hardly a useful direction for our discussion to go. LOL, to suggest that an automaker is bad because it has something you personally don't like is hardly useful.

 

Apparently everything I say is wrong and useless...because you say so [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

So, I will just let you think you are correct since you already know you are.

Good luck to you...

Eric

 

Gary you bring up an interesting point for discussion on federal programs, funding them with tax dollars, and how much of the previous discussion can relate to it should be touched on also.

Depending on the actual state a business is in and various other little loopholes etc the tax burdens can be very large, and this has been a large part of the reasoning behind many moving between states, and even moving production overseas.

What doesnt make any sense is that when a US company moves their production and so many jobs out of the country they actually get a tax break since the import tarriffs (taxes) are so low in comparison to what would have been collected in various taxes if they remained in the US.

I dont care if its Toyota or Mitsibishi or even GM or any other US company (I am not only concerned with auto mfg) that is doing this but there needs to be increases in tariffs on imports to offset losses in tax collected from companies moving off shore. These losses in taxes are only pushed to the citizens directly, and if you believe that it would be the same thru increased prices on imported products your not completely correct.

As costs for imports rise there would be a obvious desire for the companies to increase prices, but there is a more powerfull issue of price competition between products that would very likely cause the additional tarriffs to be absorbed by the mfg and would slightly reduce the much higher margins their enjoying from importing in the first place.

Another thing that would happen as the cost to consumers for imports leveled off is that they would naturally look at other options they had not before including domestic products. As an added extra the consumer would have the potential (if our legislators didnt just waste all the new $$$ like their so good at) for having additional capital to spend from a reduced tax burden from the offset of funds from the tariffs.

Borderline protectionism, well maybe you could view it that way, but not really either because the doors are still open and only the cost of passage would increase. Would there be screaming and hollering from the millions now employed around the import business? Would things level off over time and create a better balance of imports and exports, jobs and compentsation, income and tax liability?

I have to think in time it could be a good thing, and considering how the average citizen is seeing their tax burden increase out of controll while there are way too many companies being rewarded for moving their production out of the country (and those chosen few for "into the country") which is only driving the need to increase the citizens burden further there has to be an end to this escalation before things get really really ugly.

Then when you consider how federally funded projects include thousands of "pet projects", specialty grants for total nonsense, but also things like the failing Amtrak rail system it becomes obvious that there is as much a need for increased tax income as well as serious program cutting.

I dont want to move the subject matter totally to the mess our federal govt has created as a whole, but when there isnt any $$$ around for maintaining and growing the nations busiest people moving rail system, and there are literally billions wasted on uneeded projects and grants something is very wrong and needs to be changed.

Then when the problem only complicates further from decreased tax income from loss of jobs, lower taxed income, lost business taxes from companies moving, and more of the normal $$$ that would have remained in the US that would have been taxed additionally as it earned income etc and the losses from it not being reinvested domestically but rather now being used in a foreign country where there is little to zero chance of it producing any postive income of any sort in the US etc it now becomes clear that the "BIG PICTURE" goes well beyond ford and GM and is so intricate and confusing that its pretty much sci-fi to many and rather than the average guy working to protect his own future in his buying decisions he is left to pretty much just grab onto whatever he can afford, and hopefully maintain a percentage of the quality of life of generations past.

What a total friggin mess were in, and I believe without some kind of nationwide uprising things are so deeply messed up that we the citizens couldnt even figure out what is really going on not to mention actually see positive change to it all.

Ok enough rambling on about all that, but its time the burden be relieved for the tax paying citizens, and a true level playing field be established for business both foreign and domestic!!

 

On the subject of useless butt ugly autos [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I bet I am not the only one who has noticed how many people really like them [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]


Between the increase in over glorified 4x4 station wagons called SUV's and the four door sedan craze there really isnt that many non ugly (wont even say beautiful or inspiring etc because that limits it even more lol) vehicles being made today.

Guess you figured I prefer the two door type trucks and pick ups etc, and just because your not driving your family around like an inslaved chauffer in a wood paneled sided station wagon doesnt mean your not just like your dad [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Oh and that SUV dont hide your receeding hair line or sagging boobies either LMFAO

Anyhow with the gas costs rising I am worried about the domstic makers of these things because it would be a hard hit to lose sales in their #1 profitable product, and I bet they hope no one believes my myth busting on the hairline thing [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Sorry but I thought this thread needed a laugh........

 

OK...One more comment just for you 440[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

My convertible just doesn't seem to make my manliness any larger either[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

My first car was a big block Impala. It had 170,000 miles on it when I put it to rest. It got 19MPG and would tow a 21 foot boat with ease. The engine only had a timing chain in that whole time. The heads from that motor went on an 11 second Chevelle and are probably still running today. Man, if they would only make a car like that again I’d buy one in a second.

Maybe GM has the market cornered on ugly, that’s subjective. Nissan may be a close second, but that’s subjective too. China doesn’t have a car manufacturer so you can’t bring them into this one.

What’s really ugly is making lame excuses as to why GM is losing market share. It’s the Japanese closed market! It’s the Chinese!! It’s unpatriotic Americans!!! (As a veteran I find this offensive.)

It must be hard to be so arrogant and know it all, no matter what the subject. These people can discount a properly referenced factual report that took an economist months to research and write after reading it in 15 minutes. They are absolutely amazing.

But in reality it’s sad, sometimes bigoted, and always ignorant. I’d feel sorry for some of them if they weren’t so ignorant. Not being able to look at all the products available and choose the best for your application, tastes, and budget because it does not have an American badge on it. It’s sad that some get up on their soapbox and preach historically failed protectionist ideas and insult millions of American’s freedom to choose for your own selfish personal reasons or misguided ideals. They sound and think like some people in France!

I feel bad that Michigan has lost so many auto jobs, but they are not alone. The Northeast has lost many manufacturing jobs to southern states due to (unfair maybe?) tax incentives and lower wages – should I not vacation in South Carolina because they “stole” our jobs? I think I will, but that’s not the way some people think. I should only vacation in my home state because it keeps people in my state employed. Please.

Don’t blame loss of market share on unpatriotic Americans or another country’s sneaky marketing, it’s GM and Ford’s (remember now, Daimler/Chrysler is not an American company) own damn fault they’re in this position, the workers, union, and management. They let it happen - fat, dumb, and happy, confidently relying on US consumer’s patience too long. Well it’s come back to bite them and I shouldn’t have to bail them out just because it’s an American company….well at least until the government steps in and bails them out with our tax money. 75% of Americans don’t want a GM, and it’s growing, isn’t it. How’s that for a statistic.

I can only hope that people in other countries don’t look at this thread and think we’re all as arrogant, ignorant, and sometimes bigoted as the Buy American Only crowd.

 

Damn it...my Armada is not ugly!! OK...maybe a little. But it will tow a house!

Since you are talking about a big block Impala, can I assume 60s or early 70s model? If so, I would love to have one now.

 

What’s really ugly is making lame excuses as to why GM is losing market share. It’s the Japanese closed market! It’s the Chinese!! It’s unpatriotic Americans!!! (As a veteran I find this offensive.)

Wether or not it is patriotic is not clear in my mind. However, what is the problem with viewing it as patriotic? We are supporting an American company. This is the best way to support the US economy. So whats the problem? And as a veteran, I see no problem with it.

It must be hard to be so arrogant and know it all, no matter what the subject. These people can discount a properly referenced factual report that took an economist months to research and write after reading it in 15 minutes. They are absolutely amazing.

The document you provided us with had facts in it, but the intepretation of the facts were left to the writer. That makes it his opinion. So do not expect everyone to agree with his opinion.

But in reality it’s sad, sometimes bigoted, and always ignorant. I’d feel sorry for some of them if they weren’t so ignorant. Not being able to look at all the products available and choose the best for your application, tastes, and budget because it does not have an American badge on it. It’s sad that some get up on their soapbox and preach historically failed protectionist ideas and insult millions of American’s freedom to choose for your own selfish personal reasons or misguided ideals. They sound and think like some people in France!

Just because everyone does not agree with you, does not make them ignorant,selfish nor bigoted. I don't see arguments in this discussion that point to protectionism. It seems that the people that have been arguing for "Buy American" have been called every name in the book by others in this thread. That I think is misguided and ill placed.

I feel bad that Michigan has lost so many auto jobs, but they are not alone. The Northeast has lost many manufacturing jobs to southern states due to (unfair maybe?) tax incentives and lower wages – should I not vacation in South Carolina because they “stole” our jobs? I think I will, but that’s not the way some people think. I should only vacation in my home state because it keeps people in my state employed. Please.

My argument for "Buy American" has little to do with Michigan and I am not employed by any domestic automaker nor parts supplier. I have no strong allegiance to any state. I regularly travel all over the states and the world for that matter. However, it seems clear even by the documents that you guys have presented that it makes more sense to buy from an American automaker.

Don’t blame loss of market share on unpatriotic Americans or another country’s sneaky marketing, it’s GM and Ford’s (remember now, Daimler/Chrysler is not an American company) own damn fault they’re in this position, the workers, union, and management. They let it happen - fat, dumb, and happy, confidently relying on US consumer’s patience too long. Well it’s come back to bite them and I shouldn’t have to bail them out just because it’s an American company….well at least until the government steps in and bails them out with our tax money. 75% of Americans don’t want a GM, and it’s growing, isn’t it. How’s that for a statistic.

I am not sure anyone is blaming unpatriotic Americans. You seem to have a very dim view on American companies, so it is easy to understand your view. And I say your statistic is wrong.

I can only hope that people in other countries don’t look at this thread and think we’re all as arrogant, ignorant, and sometimes bigoted as the Buy American Only crowd.

If they read your post, that is exactly what they will think!!

 

1969, and I've been looking for the right project!

Bryce buddie says.....


is that all you got? same old "I say.....

but, yes you are right this time, their market share fell below 25 percent. So that's at least 76% of Americans freely chose something besides GM. good point

 

Its not 75% nor 76% of Americans because not all Americans are Car buyers. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] So again I say... your statistic is wrong!!