propnut,

"I can only hope that people in other countries don’t look at this thread and think we’re all as arrogant, ignorant, and sometimes bigoted as the Buy American Only crowd."

I could give a rats @ss what they think! Again, Japan won't take our apples, the French break the rules with the way they finance their plane manufacturing and so on it goes for many other countries.

Happy Independence Day!

 

and you know how much of NASA's (taxpayer) money makes it into our aircraft? do you have a comparison to make?

and Happy 4th to you too!

 

I am not sure where the debate over aircraft and NASA is going.

But, the great thing about this country is that we are free to debate without government interference or intimidation.

Happy Independence Day to you all as well!!

 

I tried not to do it, but I am going to join the crowd and do some cut and paste work.

Have to wonder with all the recent rights that we all have given up in the name of terror if this isnt more of a feeling than fact than it ever was before.

I use this since its the most lame example I can think of as how even a musician like John Lennon was followed, taped, watched, investigated, bugged, even contacted and interrogated before being considered for being deported due to the govt's concern on his opinions and writings.

There was even a recent web site closing that had an apearance of intervention last week due to its showing detail of a civilians contact and response (a really stupid one too) from a govt agency.

Have to admit I certainly dont feel as free as I did in the past.

Have to agree, and if anyone in France could ever look at an American and utter the word arrogant it would be an accomplishment.

Actually since the US can honestly give a rats **** about the rest of the world I dont see why anyone would expect the people to act like they do. Its obvious the politicians are screwing anyone or place they need to and just make it right to themselves by lying how its for the best of something or other etc.

Have to agree, but that was some excelent mileage and about the same I got from my similar experience with one that had a 350. My big block car was a 70 novaSS 396 and with the mods it was lucky to see 10mpg, but still I would jump at any well priced example like any of them.

I cant totally agree with this since it was really us normal everyday people who let this all happen, and I cant blame GM or Ford anymore than the guy at the deli on the corner, but all of our unwillingness to get off our ***** and do something for anything involving govt or politics (its the same problem the sport of atv'ing has with access) that has allowed things to really get as bad as they have.

I am not sure if anyone was paying attention to all of my rambling, but the part about the major corporations wealthiest americans being the biggest winners in our ever growing trade deficit is no BS at all.

Be it GM, GE or any other major corp they all have seen serious gains from moving various processes and production over seas. I cant emphasize this enough, and even when there in sort of a partnership with a foreign corp owned in major by a country like china they still reap the lions share of the advantages taken from rediculously lower costs.

And as far as what americans want, I think this is a really misunderstood statement. Depending on the location and age group being looked at this varies as much as the opinions on that armada.

Take a look at FL or even AZ now with all the retirement residents, and I think you will find most prefer a very different vehicle than the LA or NYC yuppie type crowd (damn have not heard that one in a while).

Keep in mind when considering the following that I dont work with or never have with any of the domestic auto makers (dont even have a blue collar lol), and even have had very little dealing with any of them professionally etc. and I honestly believe that GM and Ford have a similar quality and reliablity as the higher end asian imports.

Since having owned more different brands of autos than I can remember (both new and used) and sampling various levels of initial cost and models made all around the globe, and having been around the collision and mechanical industries both professionally and as a hobby in the past, and actually having some put some repair time of some sort into just about every car or truck I have owned (including a few partial and full resto's) I have learned more than a little about the real differences between the various manufacturing designs and whats really under all that shiney new paint.

One thing I can say without any reservation at all is that as the american builders have been building cars more similar to the asian imports there cars have been becoming almost as boring (sorry but all the toyota, honda, nissan, mitsu etc are seriously boring and except for about 4 models little more than transportation). Thats both good and bad, but unless you look at your car as little more than a way to work (and if so why the he!! are you buying 30-40K cars in the first place lol) it doesnt leave you as many choices as it has in the past.

I have nothing against the imports as far as the product, and same goes for the domestics, but I really would like more of a choice than the same damn ugly underpowered 4 door box. Sure cup holders are nice, but so is a little feeling when you hit the gas or pull thru a turn at speed, and I dont mean the feeling of body roll either. A little substance in the interior wouldnt be a bad idea either, and simulated everything kinda suks the big one.

You shouldnt have to buy a $45K and up caddy, lincoln, benz (I would have included volvo or jaguar which were two of my favorite euro models but since there pretty much fords now I left them out lol) or mercedes or other high end model to be able to get into a car that can look good, handle well, accelerate, give good input to the driver and just not be another boring dressed up camry (yes a poke at lexus, and deeply sorry to those who take offense, lol NOT).

I spend an unusually large amount of time in my cars and trucks between work and hauling around the atv and various other things, and I have found that except for the trucks (real ones not the suv's) most of the import and even some domestic sedans are pretty much little more than transportation. The euros do seem to now set the pace (many thought so for a long time) and the upper end us models seem to be pretty much right behind them.

What I am talking about is more than how long the timing belt will last you, or how many miles the bearing in the alternator will go, and is more about combination of feel, power, integrity of the design, performance, and even how its built.

Thirty thousand dollar price tags on an econo box dont impress, and when 20% or more of the exterior volume of the vehicle is either empty space or $600 bumpers that are little more than plastic encased over styrofoam (yep thats what your bumper is most likely made from) just to apeal to your expected american attitude of wanting larger and more excess in everything etc it just seems insulting, and still boring.

When I see the underside of many of the asian imports I seem to notice that something is missing, and yes I figured it out. Parts are missing lol. Smaller dia everything, one instead of two of most other things (control arms, and even the bolts that secure the brakes) and deffinately never a suspension that even begins to appeal like the euro models.

Some models take advantage of technology to aid in performance and even safety (corvette and many euros etc) but others just use tech to take advantage of cost savings and the consumer.

One thing I can say is that the GM made model I picked up last year is giving me the same experience with quality and workmanship as any of the similarly priced asian imports, and has not bored me nearly as much, plus as a bonus it has much more crash space and worthiness and was made in the good ole USA.

So even if you throw "buy USA " out the window there are still only so many models that would even entice me, and when you take away all the real sports cars above 100K that I would never go for all thats really left is the euro models, the 350z ( if we ever get the turbo model) and supra turbo. You can keep all the altimas, accords, camrys, galants, maximas, civics, every kia and hyundai etc and do what you will with them because I have had as good experiences with the similar sized and lower priced US products as any of the others I have owned.

When was the last time you looked at these or their recent replacements? Cavalier, Grand am, Grandprix, Regal, Mustang, Lumina, Taurus or any of the american built autos. Not selling anyone anything, but when you get past the hype you have been fed over the last 10 or 20 years about the imports being better, and how cool their boring cars are you may actually find the us builders are making a excelent quality car.

Anyone want to talk about trucks ROFLMFAO

 

Maybe I better stick to facts and forget opinion, or better yet not talk about cars cause that was way long, sorry [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

That was a good informative post 440. Good job.

I agree. People need to get past that "imports last longer" crap, and I mean total crap, that has been floating around for the past 10-20 years like you said. I have seen WAY more Hondas and other foreign cars broken down on the side of the road than domestics.

A fine example of a well built domestic car was my 1990 Buick LeSabre that I bought the last year of college, September 1996. It had 99,000 miles on it when I bought it. A woman owned it and used it as a commuter car between Northern VA and Somewhere in NC for 6 years. The car was rock solid and in the whole time I had it, it never had a valve cover off of it. The whole time I owned it, over 8 years, I only replaced tires, brakes, 1 alternator, and a coil pack, plugs and wires, and that's it. I gave it to my Dad to use as his commuter car last December, when it had 248,000 miles on it. He used it until he retired in May and sold it to a kid who needed a car that worked for my buddy that owns a repair shop. It had 257,000 miles on it when he sold it. It still runs great. BTW, a Buick LeSabre is considered a full size car. I've gotten a best of 31.6 mpg on a trip from WV to MS once. I routinely got 27-29 mpg when I drove it to work. My Dad always got between 26-28 mpg driving between WV and D.C. everyday, including D.C. beltway traffic. So you know people, America does make good cars, and mine is not an isolated case. All of my dads friends that he used to work with all drove full size, FWD GM cars with the 3.8 L engine, and all of them have over 200,000 miles on them, and one has over 300,000, all of them still running good, and they are all between 1987 and 1995 models, you know, when GM "supposedly" built bad cars. LMAO....whatever.

Dad also told me that he saw enough foreign cars broken down on the beltway everyday to fill a used car lot. People think foreign is better? They shouldn't.

Another story about mis-informed import-buyers:
I have a neighbor that is looking for a mini-van, since they are having a third kid. She asked me which one I liked between the Honda Oddessy and the Toyota Sienna. Hehehe (for those that know me...I'm a die-hard GM person) I laughed and told her neither. She asked what our van was. I told her a 2000 Oldsmobile Silouette Premiere, which we bought new. It's been a great van, now has 83,000 miles on it, and gets great mileage, even better than the Honda and Toyota. Normally getting 24-26 mpg combo driving, 27-30 mpg on the highway. Even squeezing 31mpg one time coming home from vacation a few years ago. I also told her about my Buick, and how good it was to me. And here is what a typical import buyer said...."I didn't know Buicks lasted that long." I about fell out of my chair. I told her what she didn't know is that Buicks, and most other GMs for that matter, lasted longer than any other Honda or Toyota or any other foreign car, and that she needed to go test drive a Chevy Uplander or Buick Terazza, before committing only to Honda or Toyota.

I've never seen a foreign car go over 200,000 miles. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've seen, with my own eyes, hundreds of GM cars with odometers over 200,000 miles on them, and they are still running, and the car is still in one piece. If a foreign car has that many miles on it, 99 time out of 100, it is rusted through (think Toyota pick-up truck beds as a fine example of that) or it is on it's 2nd engine or transmission. I'm also not saying that every GM car or truck will go to 200,000, because mainly from routine maintenance issues, but what I am saying is that domestics will routinely last longer than the foreign counterparts under similar circumstances.

Oh, and 05Pred500,

I just have to comment on something you said a while back regarding your Armada. If you think the Armada is better looking than a Suburban, than you must have been wearing your beer goggles. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] And as far as pulling a house? Let's hook it up to my 2500 Suburban 8.1 Liter. You better be able to steer backwards. Hahahaaa. j/k had to put it out there.



BTW, sorry for the long post.

 

propnut,

"and you know how much of NASA's (taxpayer) money makes it into our aircraft? do you have a comparison to make?"

As even Pred basically said, it's hard to compare the military related manufacturing jobs with the private sector. And like the French really need it's own military LOL. We all know NASA does allot for the national defence.

The POINT is the French Air Bus is breaking the international trade rules, while we are not - regardless of NASA spin off's to the private sector. Japan, the French and others are breaking the trade rules. When we break them (and we do in comparatively small ways) they gang up and give us hell to pay. This goes for the farming sector as well (American farm goods). Again, not free trade or fair enforcement of the rules.

And even though you and I don't buy planes, it is very much a buy American topic when our American planes (or farm goods) don't sell as well because of foreign cheaters like Air Bus.

I'll be gone for the weekend so others please provide rebuttal in my absence.

A sincere very happy 4th to all!

 

This is a great thead.Alot of good post on both sides.I dont claim to know to much about the world economy and how it all works .But what I do know is it makes me feel good when I buy things that say made in the USA.Like the motor in my sp700 right on the side.MADE IN THE USA.I knoe the carp and a few other things arnt .I just think we all could do alittle more to keep the jobs here.I like to think when I buy something theres a guy out there like myself making a liveing off it.But I know its hard TV's computters the list gos on and on things you cant find made in the USA on.My brother inlaw just bought a mazda with a UAW sticker in the window....

 

I understand your bias toward American cars. That's great. But, you will hear just as many people talking about American cars on the broken down on the highways.

As for imports going 200k miles or more, I have also seen hundreds of them. I was in the car business when I was young (21-22). I personally had an 87 Acura Integra that I bought used with 87k miles on it, totaled it with 140k miles on it, rebuilt it because the value was still high, and sold it when it had 209k miles on it for a ridiculously high amount. My business partner has an 86 Accord that he just put up for sale with 257k miles. The kbb.com private party sale price is $1510.00. He is getting bites @ $2100.00.

As for rust, I see plenty of domestic vehicles with bubbling all over the lower doors and quarters.

So, there are stories abound about both domestic and import cars.

As for my Armada, show me another SUV with a 5.6L Gas V8 that is rated for 9100lbs. BTW...I pulled 9600lbs without a load distributing hitch 380+ miles from Port Clinton with no problems. Regardless of your bias, there are some excellent import vehicles. Thank you to the Nissan workers in Mississippi that built my truck.

 

understand your bias toward American cars. That's great. But, you will hear just as many people talking about American cars on the broken down on the highways.

I don't hear many people talking about American cars on the highway. But I guess if you believe that buying imports are good for the US ecomomy, I guess you are apt to believe anything.

As for imports going 200k miles or more, I have also seen hundreds of them. I was in the car business when I was young (21-22). I personally had an 87 Acura Integra that I bought used with 87k miles on it, totaled it with 140k miles on it, rebuilt it because the value was still high, and sold it when it had 209k miles on it for a ridiculously high amount. My business partner has an 86 Accord that he just put up for sale with 257k miles. The kbb.com private party sale price is $1510.00. He is getting bites @ $2100.00.

Hmm.. I have heard of thousands of American cars with more that 200k miles and they didn't have to be rebuilt. I guess that imports just don't last as long. LOL, a friend just sold his 20 year old Fiero for $4000, and it had 180,000 miles on it.

As for rust, I see plenty of domestic vehicles with bubbling all over the lower doors and quarters.

LOL, in Michigan.. imports disappear due to rust in 10 years. American cars only have minor rust after 10 years.

So, there are stories abound about both domestic and import cars.

Yep, and most of them are really bad about imports.

As for my Armada, show me another SUV with a 5.6L Gas V8 that is rated for 9100lbs. BTW...I pulled 9600lbs without a load distributing hitch 380+ miles from Port Clinton with no problems. Regardless of your bias, there are some excellent import vehicles. Thank you to the Nissan workers in Mississippi that built my truck.

Boy, thats is an interesting statement. LOL, not too many manufacturers make a 5.6L gas engine. However, if we ignore that qualifier for a moment, the Chevrolet Suburban can tow up to 12,000 pounds. So yep, I just showed you another SUV that tows 2900 pounds more than your Armada.