Back to the same ole BS, right Bryce? You have to get the 8.1 to tow 12k lbs. Quit misrepresenting...

I can understand loyalty. But, I can't understand denial and blind logic. You can't even acknowledge that there is outstanding competition out there even in the face of a serious loss of market share. You blame it on price even though I gave you several examples proving that it wasn't the case. Here, I will give you another example, my Armada was more than an equivelent Chevy.

Look, if Chevy wants to update the interior of the Suburban from the same 'basic' 1990 styling, maybe I'll take a look. Until then, I have a great vehicle. But, I want to make sure they don't go into bankruptcy first. I doubt you know a damn thing about the vehicles you trash. Actually, I doubt you have even driven them given your disdain. You don't hear me downing the quality of GM. For arguments sake, I will give that too you. But, their designers, for the most part, should put down the bong. They should also go drive some of the competition to see what a car should feel like.

Blame everyone but the responsible parties for GMs continuing loss of value if you like. Logic, again, says that you are wrong.

But, what do I know? My comments, regardless of education and experience, are useless right? But, everything you say is dead on. How do you get that big head through doorways?

 

I am sure we have all heard the good news that GM posted a 41% increase in monthly sales due to their "Pay what we Pay" program. Most auto manufacturers are happy when they see a 1% increase. This program was so successful that Volvo and Chrysler have anounced similar programs. I guess that 05PRED500's statement that price doesn't matter was pretty much BS. Like I pointed out in a previous post: PRICE MATTERS!!

 

05Pred500, how do you figure that the Suburban has a 1990 interior and dash? I think you are highly mistaken. My father bought a new chevy 1500 4x4 back in 1990. I just bought a 2004 Suburban in March of 2005. Our interiors and dash look NOTHING alike. I'm still trying to figure that comment out. If you look at a new Suburban, or even 2000, since that is when they updated them from the older style, they have a very attractive and user-friendly dash and interior.

Oh, BTW, the my Suburban has the 8100 engine, and can tow up to 12,000 with ease. (I tow my race car, @ 6,000 pounds with trailer, and I hardly know it's back there - and can even pass cars going up hills -- but anyway) But, the base 6.0 Liter can tow 9600 in 4wd configuration or 9,900 lbs in 2wd configuration. Just thought you would like to know.

 

Back to the same ole BS, right Bryce? You have to get the 8.1 to tow 12k lbs. Quit misrepresenting...

Not at all misrepresenting, you asked us to show you an SUV that would tow 8600 pounds. Clearly no one makes a 5.6L V8.. So now you are complaining that there actually is another SUV that can tow more? Not sure I see the problem.

I can understand loyalty. But, I can't understand denial and blind logic. You can't even acknowledge that there is outstanding competition out there even in the face of a serious loss of market share. You blame it on price even though I gave you several examples proving that it wasn't the case. Here, I will give you another example, my Armada was more than an equivelent Chevy.

The discussion is not about how good or bad the competition is. The discussion is "Why buy American". Seems you always get side tracked on interesting thinks like "lean" techniques. And you have blamed everyone from American workers to American Management to unions to... But I don't see your point that the Armada is better than a Suburban. Particularly if I need to tow 10,000 pounds.

Look, if Chevy wants to update the interior of the Suburban from the same 'basic' 1990 styling, maybe I'll take a look. Until then, I have a great vehicle. But, I want to make sure they don't go into bankruptcy first. I doubt you know a damn thing about the vehicles you trash. Actually, I doubt you have even driven them given your disdain. You don't hear me downing the quality of GM. For arguments sake, I will give that too you. But, their designers, for the most part, should put down the bong. They should also go drive some of the competition to see what a car should feel like.

It seems to me that the Suburban interior styling is much nicer than the Armada. But I guess that is just personel preference. I don't have any disdain for imports, I just believe it is better for the US economy to buy American autos. And that is what this thread is all about. As far as trashing autos, I don't think I have done it anywhere near as much as you have! You can't talk about GM without trashing everything about them. LOL, now you are trashing their designers. Yep, I'll bet you would be a great designer. And once again, you show your total lack of knowledge about the auto companies by suggesting that they have not driven the competition. Not only have they driven the competition, but they have taken those cars completely apart to see what makes them tick.

Blame everyone but the responsible parties for GMs continuing loss of value if you like. Logic, again, says that you are wrong.

It is interesting that we went from the question "Why buy American" to looking at GM problems. This is the biggest reason I argue with you. You argument does not focus on "Why buy American" or not... It focuses on how bad a company GM is!! This seems to me a deflection of the argument to something that is unrelated to the discussion. Your own document that you presented to us, clearly proves that imports have been directly responsible for the loss of US jobs. So whats up?

But, what do I know? My comments, regardless of education and experience, are useless right? But, everything you say is dead on. How do you get that big head through doorways?

When you present an argument that does not have anything to do with the discussion, it is clearly useless. You have presented "lean" techniques as an argument!!! Yes, that is a great argument for buying or not buying American. You have told us all about your business and proved to us that you have neither the pay or the benefits of the auto makers!! This is totally unrelated to the argument. You have told us about both imports you have bought. And your reasons are clearly personel preference. So what the heck am I suppose to say to that? It is a common tactic in arguing to get off the subject.. And you have done it quite often. So don't expect me to passively sit by when you do it. BTW, I don't see that my head is any bigger or smaller than anyone elses.

 

Hey 440EX026 and sp600towtruck.. I read your posts and I feel they are quite on target as far as probably how most people feel about imports and domestic autos.
BryceGTX

 

This discussion is so far past the original question... That happened back on page 3 or so.

You, in your infinite wisdom, already answered the original question along time ago. Why beat a dead horse? As the discussion drifted, I simply pointed out the obvious. You have tried to spin everything that I post, although ineffectively. You have tried making me out to be someone that thinks we should buy imports for the heck of it. Yet, you don't hear any issues with other companies. I own 2 Polaris ATVs. I have owned several Ford vehicles. I sell several American made products successfully. I simply call a spade, a spade. If you don't want to debate anything else, don't respond to my posts. Otherwise, quit singling me out for participating in a discussion with several people here. Quit selectively debating and then HIDING BEHIND "This isn't the argument. The original question is Why Buy American".

You are unable to qualify a simple comparison. Imagine that, an SUV with an 8.1L can out tow an SUV with a 5.7. A logical, more reasonble person would make the comparo with a vehicle having a similar sized engine. Oh well...

I am simply amazed that you can defend a failing company by making them the victim. I can't stand victim mentality from anyone, especially a company that caused their own issues by failing to adapt or adapting to slowly. This antiquated mentality is what brings great American companies down.

You have claimed "most people" feel the way you do. I have asked these questions numerous times without a direct response; If this is the case, why does GM continue to lose market share in their own house? Why can't they manage a profit? Don't say price. GM in general cost less to buy and they are far less to repair. They are generally easier to buy. GMAC, which IS profitable, does a great job of creating unique programs for every buyer. Why do the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord OWN the midsize sedan catagory? You and several others here claim that they are ugly. Yet, they continue to succeed year after year.

The American way is based on competition. If you want to win quit making excuses and put out a better product that people want to buy. And for goodness sake, quit giving everything away and devaluing your own product.

 

You, in your infinite wisdom, already answered the original question along time ago. Why beat a dead horse? As the discussion drifted, I simply pointed out the obvious. You have tried to spin everything that I post, although ineffectively. You have tried making me out to be someone that thinks we should buy imports for the heck of it. Yet, you don't hear any issues with other companies. I own 2 Polaris ATVs. I have owned several Ford vehicles. I sell several American made products successfully. I simply call a spade, a spade. If you don't want to debate anything else, don't respond to my posts. Otherwise, quit singling me out for participating in a discussion with several people here. Quit selectively debating and then HIDING BEHIND "This isn't the argument. The original question is Why Buy American".

I think the problem is that you are not arguing why not to buy American... You are just arguing that American companies and GM in particular is very bad. You point out that it is badly managed, poor workforce, badly designed cars... Although interesting discussion, too many statistics say that GM produces very good cars with very efficent production and they still own the largest market share of the US market. So I don't see this discussion as why we should not buy GM. And I don't see this as a discussion as to why not to buy American. And if you don't want me to single you out, then don't post. Clearly your thinking is contrary to mine, so naturally I am going to argue with you.

You are unable to qualify a simple comparison. Imagine that, an SUV with an 8.1L can out tow an SUV with a 5.7. A logical, more reasonble person would make the comparo with a vehicle having a similar sized engine. Oh well...

I didn't compare an 8.1 to your 5.6. I compared Suburban to the Armada. And if you had checked the specs of a Suburban, you would know that the Suburban with a 6.0 is rated to tow 9900 pounds. Which is 800 pounds more than your Armada. So you should quit your complaining about what anyone is comparing to your Armada.

I am simply amazed that you can defend a failing company by making them the victim. I can't stand victim mentality from anyone, especially a company that caused their own issues by failing to adapt or adapting to slowly. This antiquated mentality is what brings great American companies down.

Interesting.."Victim mentality"... I don't buy from companies because they might be failing or succeding. I buy from them because that is what I want and what I think is the best in the long run for my money. And all else being equal, I will tend to buy American. I am not going to blindly buy from a company just because they are at the top of a popularity list or that they have higher production efficiency than another. That sounds to me like blindly buying something because everyone else is buying it. I am not one that is going to buy from a company because they have the highest sales or profits. Typically, that may not be where I am going to get the best deal. Fortunately, I have an ability to use my brain and come to my own conclusions about what is good or bad, no matter what everyone else is doing. So I don't see the argument to buy Toyota because they have better profits than GM.

You have claimed "most people" feel the way you do. I have asked these questions numerous times without a direct response; If this is the case, why does GM continue to lose market share in their own house? Why can't they manage a profit? Don't say price. GM in general cost less to buy and they are far less to repair. They are generally easier to buy. GMAC, which IS profitable, does a great job of creating unique programs for every buyer. Why do the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord OWN the midsize sedan catagory? You and several others here claim that they are ugly. Yet, they continue to succeed year after year.

Hmm... it seems we have talked about GM profits quite often and we answered it quite often. Continuing on.. As we have all seen in the past. The best thing to buy is not always what everyone else is buying. LOL, I think the DOT.com bust is the best example of this kind of simple minded buying mentality. So if you ask me why buy from GM because they are losing market share... I can't even fathom the question because it has little to do with why I buy anything. Once again, it sounds like you buy from others only because they are winning, not because they produce a better product or they are better for the economy. And if you look at my posts, you will find that I never claimed that either Camry or Accord are ugly.

The American way is based on competition. If you want to win quit making excuses and put out a better product that people want to buy. And for goodness sake, quit giving everything away and devaluing your own product.

I am buying American because they are as good or better than anything made by any off-shore company and it is clearly better to buy from an American company than it is to buy from off shore. Fortunately, no one needs to make any excuses, because invariably American made products are as good or better. The funny thing is that buyers preference is counter productive to high market share because buyers typically want something different from everyone else. So the only way to sell in that market is with price. And that was proved quite dramatically when the June auto sales figures came in and GM sales rose 41%.

 

In the first quarter, GMAC -- short for General Motors Acceptance Corp. -- earned $729 million, while GM's auto business lost $1.83 billion. On a consolidated basis, then, GM lost $1.1 billion, or $1.95 per share. -- From the Street.com

Gm does make quality products, but they made more money last lear as a lending institution than maunfacutiring vehicles.
street.com

 

Bryce, quit using my arguments for one point when they were specifically directed toward something else. You are quoting me completely out of context and misquoting in some instances.

If you feel that you must mischaracterize to win arguments or make points, so be it. I just won't participate.

 

I made this point in an earlier post. Thanks for providing the back up to that information.