720 Raptor vs. DS-703
#21
10-31-2001, 12:21 AM
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By the way Raptor720, I don't need any advice on beeting Raptors, I've never lost to one yet. I do like to race from the bottom of the hill, because I have enough torque to do it, but I can and have raced from way back as well. I guess if I had no torque, and had to spin the hell out of my motors to get some HP, I'd want to race from way back from the hill also. The main reason I don't like to start from that far back is due to the fact that I'm doing better than 60MPH when I hit the 3 whoops that are always at the base of Dumont. Banshee riders kept working me further and further back in hopes of building up enough speed to hang with me up the hill, but it didn't work. Raptor owners would not race with me last year, I hope there are some to come play this season.
#22
10-31-2001, 12:55 AM
Raptor720
Is the reason you run the special headgasket to keep the oil out of the cooling system? I have heard this is the problem that most 720 owners have been having. Have you tried a single carb set up on a raptor to see if it works? I have been thinking of a single carb kit but not sure if its worth it or not.
Is the reason you run the special headgasket to keep the oil out of the cooling system? I have heard this is the problem that most 720 owners have been having. Have you tried a single carb set up on a raptor to see if it works? I have been thinking of a single carb kit but not sure if its worth it or not.
#23
10-31-2001, 10:09 AM
Knutz,
I expect that the shops that worked on that 720 are what I refer to as "chrome shops." First, the porting is so critical on the 660 engine that only a handful of people in the world should ever attempt the job (I say that seriously). Second, anyone who runs a single 45mm on a Raptor has no clue about performance. The 45mm will give about 5 pounds more torque in low rpm but absolutely kills the top end. There is no way the single 45mm with a 105mm piston will ever make 70+hp on a Raptor. That is probably why he added juice. The only application for the single would be a tight MX track.
On the head gasket, I have my own gaskets made and perform some special work to keep them sealed. I only know of two shops that use a similiar head gasket and perform the other work needed to seal the big engine (one shop here and one across the ocean). Yes, I had one 720 leak to water but that was my first in house test engine. When I pulled it apart, I made a different gasket and made the other changes needed to keep it sealed. Now, even if the engine ran juice, it would NEVER leak.
On the clutch -- who knows. The stock clutch is intended for 35hp not 60+. Springs will do ok for most people but the 6 spring YZ conversion is the way to go for all out clutch abuse.
On starting back from the hill, with a swing arm, the Raptor can start on the hill and beat the DS.
I wonder why the guy spend 26k on his engine???? Perhaps he likes to bite pillows???
Have the guy drop me a note -- I would like to talk to him and perhaps offer to take a look at his parts and make some corrections.
I expect that the shops that worked on that 720 are what I refer to as "chrome shops." First, the porting is so critical on the 660 engine that only a handful of people in the world should ever attempt the job (I say that seriously). Second, anyone who runs a single 45mm on a Raptor has no clue about performance. The 45mm will give about 5 pounds more torque in low rpm but absolutely kills the top end. There is no way the single 45mm with a 105mm piston will ever make 70+hp on a Raptor. That is probably why he added juice. The only application for the single would be a tight MX track.
On the head gasket, I have my own gaskets made and perform some special work to keep them sealed. I only know of two shops that use a similiar head gasket and perform the other work needed to seal the big engine (one shop here and one across the ocean). Yes, I had one 720 leak to water but that was my first in house test engine. When I pulled it apart, I made a different gasket and made the other changes needed to keep it sealed. Now, even if the engine ran juice, it would NEVER leak.
On the clutch -- who knows. The stock clutch is intended for 35hp not 60+. Springs will do ok for most people but the 6 spring YZ conversion is the way to go for all out clutch abuse.
On starting back from the hill, with a swing arm, the Raptor can start on the hill and beat the DS.
I wonder why the guy spend 26k on his engine???? Perhaps he likes to bite pillows???
Have the guy drop me a note -- I would like to talk to him and perhaps offer to take a look at his parts and make some corrections.
#24
10-31-2001, 10:52 AM
Excellent discussion here, I only regret being so far away I cant get out to see some of this on the track. I have to question some of the DS claims here and the expensive single carb 720 sounds like something is missing from that description. I like the DS 650 and always enjoy the competition from DS riders, but they are not designed for the same kind of riding as the raptor (fast and relatively light) often falling behind on the technical trails.
720raptor I will be needing to upgrade my clutch, I would appreciate any recommendations, thanks for the help with the valve springs that was an excellent suggestion and easier than I expected
720raptor I will be needing to upgrade my clutch, I would appreciate any recommendations, thanks for the help with the valve springs that was an excellent suggestion and easier than I expected
#25
10-31-2001, 12:06 PM
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Raptor720,
You could not be more right about the shop being a "chrome shop". Quad Central II is the shop that did that "Rap Daddy" thing in Dirt Wheels and they truely don't have a clue how to build performance, all they can really do is bolt on shiny stuff.
Why can't you get 70+ HP from a 45MM carb? I do on the DS motor. I'm currently experimenting with a new carb option that hasn't been tried in the past. By the way, when you go to the dual FCR's, are they both the same size, or do you have to run one large and one small to work with the Raptor head? I'll share my experiment with you when it's ready, but if it works, it will work for Raptors as well.
We use our own gaskets as well, but that is because we use our own cylinder and the outside size and shape are not the same as stock. I could definatly see a problem with sealing a 105MM bore on a cylinder designed for only 100MM.
What does the Raptor use stock, a 5 spring set up? I would agree, 6 spings would be a hot ticket. What does this require to convert, just swap the basket to a YZ one? Is there any machine work needed to do this?
I have yet to run my +4" swing arm, so I'm talking about racing with stock swing arms. I beat any Raptor that has lined up against me from the base or from a good distance away from the base, it doesn't matter. But I think if your going to race up a hill, the race should be up the hill, not 100' across the flat and then up the hill. It takes more power to climb than to go down the decline leading to Comp Hill.
I think the $26,000 figure was for everything he has done to the bike, not just the motor. He hasn't done all that much to the bike, so I don't see how he spent it all, then again, that shop does like to rape there victoms...I mean customers.
E-mail me your contact info, including the name of your shop. I'll talk to the owner of the shop it is currently in. I don't want to steal this customer away from this shop since they do good work and the owner is extremly helpfull, but the owner wasn't sure if he wanted to work on two other shops abortion any way. If he doesn't want the job, I'll get the guy sent your way.
vraptor,
I'm not making any claims about how fast the stock DS is, I'm talking about my motors. It's highly likely that you haven't run into them yet as I own a relatively small shop and have only produced so many thus far. As busy as I am though, you'll be seeing more and more of them soon. I understand that CT is now trying to build big bore DS's and not having good luck. 2 of their customers have called me to ask for help sealing them up. I guess a big name builder doesn't mean they get it right, Raptor720[what ever his shop is] and Knutz Concepts have taken the time to do the motors we build right.
You could not be more right about the shop being a "chrome shop". Quad Central II is the shop that did that "Rap Daddy" thing in Dirt Wheels and they truely don't have a clue how to build performance, all they can really do is bolt on shiny stuff.
Why can't you get 70+ HP from a 45MM carb? I do on the DS motor. I'm currently experimenting with a new carb option that hasn't been tried in the past. By the way, when you go to the dual FCR's, are they both the same size, or do you have to run one large and one small to work with the Raptor head? I'll share my experiment with you when it's ready, but if it works, it will work for Raptors as well.
We use our own gaskets as well, but that is because we use our own cylinder and the outside size and shape are not the same as stock. I could definatly see a problem with sealing a 105MM bore on a cylinder designed for only 100MM.
What does the Raptor use stock, a 5 spring set up? I would agree, 6 spings would be a hot ticket. What does this require to convert, just swap the basket to a YZ one? Is there any machine work needed to do this?
I have yet to run my +4" swing arm, so I'm talking about racing with stock swing arms. I beat any Raptor that has lined up against me from the base or from a good distance away from the base, it doesn't matter. But I think if your going to race up a hill, the race should be up the hill, not 100' across the flat and then up the hill. It takes more power to climb than to go down the decline leading to Comp Hill.
I think the $26,000 figure was for everything he has done to the bike, not just the motor. He hasn't done all that much to the bike, so I don't see how he spent it all, then again, that shop does like to rape there victoms...I mean customers.
E-mail me your contact info, including the name of your shop. I'll talk to the owner of the shop it is currently in. I don't want to steal this customer away from this shop since they do good work and the owner is extremly helpfull, but the owner wasn't sure if he wanted to work on two other shops abortion any way. If he doesn't want the job, I'll get the guy sent your way.
vraptor,
I'm not making any claims about how fast the stock DS is, I'm talking about my motors. It's highly likely that you haven't run into them yet as I own a relatively small shop and have only produced so many thus far. As busy as I am though, you'll be seeing more and more of them soon. I understand that CT is now trying to build big bore DS's and not having good luck. 2 of their customers have called me to ask for help sealing them up. I guess a big name builder doesn't mean they get it right, Raptor720[what ever his shop is] and Knutz Concepts have taken the time to do the motors we build right.
#26
10-31-2001, 12:19 PM
Hey Knutz,
What is that "new" product for the Raptor??? It wouldn't be yellow plastic or a 50 pound sand bag would it??? lol
Seriously, if you are working on an ignition here is a head start -- the trigger voltage signal is so low on the Raptor it is amazing how Yamaha even gets it to fire. This makes big problems for anyone trying to build aftermarket ignitions.
If you are making a single carb -- they are POS. It is already done by Bikeworx.
Cams, got them covered.
Clutch -- be my guest.
Air box -- be my guest.
Jet kit -- copy dynojet and sell it for less.
Exhaust -- copy the stock system but make the primary tubes 4-5" longer.
Silly pieces of chrome -- keep them on the DS.
What is that "new" product for the Raptor??? It wouldn't be yellow plastic or a 50 pound sand bag would it??? lol
Seriously, if you are working on an ignition here is a head start -- the trigger voltage signal is so low on the Raptor it is amazing how Yamaha even gets it to fire. This makes big problems for anyone trying to build aftermarket ignitions.
If you are making a single carb -- they are POS. It is already done by Bikeworx.
Cams, got them covered.
Clutch -- be my guest.
Air box -- be my guest.
Jet kit -- copy dynojet and sell it for less.
Exhaust -- copy the stock system but make the primary tubes 4-5" longer.
Silly pieces of chrome -- keep them on the DS.
#28
10-31-2001, 03:00 PM
sounds like u got something up your sleeve for us raptor owners knutz, i would try out the prototype on my raptor if you want me to, hehe, i really want more power.
raptor720- do you have a shop that will do work for raptors? you sound like you really know your stuff, just like knutz(and i have seen his motors run and they are awesome). I really want to get some stuff done to my raptor, if you dont do it, please point me in the right direction. Thanks, sean
raptor720- do you have a shop that will do work for raptors? you sound like you really know your stuff, just like knutz(and i have seen his motors run and they are awesome). I really want to get some stuff done to my raptor, if you dont do it, please point me in the right direction. Thanks, sean
#29
10-31-2001, 08:28 PM
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What I have up my sleave will be used on the DS first, and if it has the results I hope, I'll start trying it on the 400EX and then the Raptor. It's a unique idea that sould have really good results, but we'll see. Let's just say that I got the idea at the SEMA[specialty equipment manufacturers association] show. The show is primarilly for the automotive industry, but creative minds look at all sorces for ideas.
Jetsnow,
I might take you up on the offer, but it would require you bringing your quad to Vegas and leaving it with me for a while. Otherwise I will find a local with a Raptor I can use. I'd really like to see how it does on one of Raptor720's motors[since his actually hold together].
Jetsnow,
I might take you up on the offer, but it would require you bringing your quad to Vegas and leaving it with me for a while. Otherwise I will find a local with a Raptor I can use. I'd really like to see how it does on one of Raptor720's motors[since his actually hold together].
#30
11-02-2001, 05:38 PM
