So are you going to accept my challenge or not? My point is everyone gets on these forums and makes all kind of claims but are never challenged to prove them. I know this gets people stirred up but I am the kind of person who sees things "black and white", "right and wrong" and I just want the truth. I don't have anything to prove - I am not making any big claims myself. I enjoy my business and I always seem to have more work than I need and I'm not trying to take business from anyone else. There is so much junk being sold out there and so many lies being told that I just believe that the customers that pay out the money should get what they pay for. Exhaust system hype is one of my biggest pet peves and I think you have hit that on the head already so I don't need to go into that subject again. I have stayed off these forums but I read everything but now I have gotten to the point where I am going to get on a lot of forums and expose the myths of 4-stroke engine building. I am not saying that I know everything because I don't and at least I admit it. I have been building motors for over 25 years professionally so I have a little bit of wisdom behind me.

 

I am up for a challenge but is seems odd that a person in the business would be so concerned with someone who does the work as a hobbie these days. How about we send the heads to a shop that is known for building quality automobile race motors. I know of a few out this way that I am sure would test a couple of heads for about $50. While we are at it, and since you know the folks at Powroll, get them to participate. I beleive I can get Trinity to loan a head for a couple of days and if someone knows Sparks or Knowles well enough, perhaps they would like to participate in a "head" show down. The guideline would be a head intended for use on a day to day multi-purpose machine. No Ti valves or springs, stock diameter valve stems only (guide mods are ok), 105mm limit on intended bore, decked and modified chamber are allowed, valve lift limitation .470 (head must be set up to accept springs and at least one intake and exhaust spring must be supplied to confirm that your lift fits within your spring limitations" All heads will be tested with clay a clay radius on the intake manifold edge and no exhaust whatsoever. Welding on exhaust and intake is prohibited; however, epoxy and other bonding materials intended for actual use will be allowed on the intake tract. All heads will be tested at 28" of water with readings at .005, .010, .015, .020. .025, .035, .050, .100, .150, .200, .250, .275, .285, .295, .300,
.310, .320, .330, .340, etc at .010 increments until the head craps out. Year 2000-2001 castings only NOT the redesigned core head currently in production. The results will be made into a graph showing flow. The retail cost of all work performed on the head shall be limited to $1000 -- as if the head was offered for sale to the general public.

At the conclusion of the test, each participant will be given his flow results and I will provide a copy of a proposed article and photos for inclusion in Dirt Wheels or some other dirt rag. Each participant will be given the opportunity to comment on the article.
Does that sound fair to you??

 

now thats the kinda test i was thinking of,only thing id like to see changed is the dollar limit,i think it should be lowered so the regular joe can see the diff in something he can afford.not alot of guys would want to drop 1000.00 on just porting.500.00 seems like a better number,most shops start at around 300.00 i think.and i would like to thank micky for posting his thoughts,and showing intrest in this test,i dont see alot of owners from shops on here giving info.from all the shops ive delt with most treat you like you dont have a clue about anything and unless you buy their complete system, you cant get a simple answer out of them about anything either.mickey set up my buddie with a 468 i think,warrior kit and even though he did the work himself mickey gave him all the info he asked for.ct wouldnt of told him jack.anyway to all you other shop owners i say step up

 

Derby,

I also appreciate Mickey's participation on the site. It is about time people in the business get down and share some stuff. I agree on the head porting costs limit. Perhaps $600 is more in line for the average Joe.

Now, we need to get the shops to agree and participate. I have already found one professional automobile race engine builder who is willing to flow test (per specs) up to six heads at $50 each. I will even offer to cover the first $150 of the flow test charges.

I already have the interest of one on line magazine who would like to witness, photograph and participate in writing the article. Now we are on the right track.

Next shoot out should be stock CV carb mods.

 

Here's a better idea, I'll donate my low hour cylinder head for Mickey's porting job [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] or any reputable shops for that matter and let you run all the flow tests you want on it. Just send it back when your done and I wont even charge you guys a fee! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

Wow, I never expected this questionj to come this far, but I'm glad it has.I appreciate all the info and knowledge from all parties...can't wait to see the out come....

 

mickey- help us out here. 720 has spent countless hours helping us raptor owners out. I see nothing wrong with companies doing the same. We all want to mod our machines. Most owners just want to get our monies worth. we all now that the raptor does Not need a full pipe, but lots of people still buy them. I am ready for a 686 kit now, i am headed towards trinity mainly because 720 has taken the time to answer, private message my questions. I will give you a call to see what you offer and then make a decesion. I just want a good job at a fair price. I don't work for free and don't expect any one else to. But if i am paying for 10hp i want 9.5 to 10.5. Some companies stretch the numbers. Thanks mickey for showing up on these sites some.

 

Year 2000-2001 castings only NOT the redesigned core head currently in production.

Is the 2002 head "better" or just different in stock form ?????

As for the test, it would be awesome and a first for atv / bikes, will it happen, I hope so but I fell that apart from Trinity the others probably won't rise to the challenge!

Kiwi

 

AirFlow Research has come up with a formula to estimate maximum hp potential by using a given cylinder head flow. I found this in Car Craft magazine but the formula should work for all heads. hp=cfm x 0.2575 x number of cylinders. Obviously this does not take into account different cam profiles and bore diameters or compression and that is why it is an estimated maximum hp. I would be intersted to see how close this formula is on motorcycle/ATV engines, as it has been shown to be accurate on automobile engines. Also I am interestd in hearing/seeing info (read-proof) on the 3 angle versus 5 angle theory. Last, I agree that flow numbers will not be the same from one bench to another, but any machine should show the difference from one head to another. Make this test a reality so that there will be at least one thread on this forum that isn't just a bunch of people blowing a lot of smoke.

 

QUADMXR,

I have used that formula for quite a long time. It is one of the many math issues that I use to help get the motor in spec for the desired application. As for the Raptor motor, the formula is fairly accurate.

What we will be looking to see is cylinder heads that can flow in excess of 280cfm.

14MINS,

Thank you for your comments. It is true that I spend countless hours attempting to help people in private and posted threads here and in other sites. How much money have I made for my time ZERO. Why, I am not in the business. The reason why I started posting was simply because I was really mad that shops were selling pipes (for example) that for most people reduced torque in the low to mid rpm range. From there, all sorts of issues have developed. From time to time, people in the business will come here and make a post or flame my work, but then they disappear. Mickey Dunlop is one who seems to be really interested in just getting accurate information and NOT flaming (for the most part). I hope he sticks around and provides this site with some of his self proclaimed 25 years of experience. After all, I pretty much limit my comments to Raptors, and the youth atv market.

As for the shootout, I am serious. Like the full pipe issue, I think the public should know if the head work they are getting really works.