giovanni 200cc...NO SPARK...Pls Help
Jan 4, 2011 | 12:05 AM
#32
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 14
From: Tracy, California, USA
One through three look OK. Number four looks like something is happening, so there must be a trigger getting through the CDI, but it is really low at just a few millivolts. So I was going to suggest that you try that again and make sure that it is not volts instead of millivolts.
But I see that it is now running after changing the plug. So it now a moot point.
It seems to me that I recall seeing a video for rent on www.smartflix.com showing how to repair quad plastics and paint them. I may have even rented it since I sort of recall that repairing and painting plastic was very cost prohibitive, and gave it no more thought after that (until now). You may want to wander over there and look at the reviews (its been a while since I've looked) and see if it is worth your while.
But I see that it is now running after changing the plug. So it now a moot point.
It seems to me that I recall seeing a video for rent on www.smartflix.com showing how to repair quad plastics and paint them. I may have even rented it since I sort of recall that repairing and painting plastic was very cost prohibitive, and gave it no more thought after that (until now). You may want to wander over there and look at the reviews (its been a while since I've looked) and see if it is worth your while.
Mar 19, 2012 | 10:22 PM
#33
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
First off, thanks to Lynn for the awesome how-to's on checking the ignition systems.
My ATV is a "Star X" 200cc air cooled. It ran fine for a few months then no start / no spark. I changed the spark plug, and ran the following tests, and then replaced the CDI, and still no spark, so either I missed soemthing, or there is more to this....
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) open (dead short when I hit the kill switch)
2) 319 ohms
3) 187 ohms
4) 44 volts (28 volts when connected to CDI with everything, 44 volts when trigger disconnected)
5) .2 volts
6) <1 volt
Any thoughts? Very frustrating....
I replaced the CDI with an identical looking one from the local shop, but I am not sure that it is not defective. I retested everything half a dozen times.
My ATV is a "Star X" 200cc air cooled. It ran fine for a few months then no start / no spark. I changed the spark plug, and ran the following tests, and then replaced the CDI, and still no spark, so either I missed soemthing, or there is more to this....
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) open (dead short when I hit the kill switch)
2) 319 ohms
3) 187 ohms
4) 44 volts (28 volts when connected to CDI with everything, 44 volts when trigger disconnected)
5) .2 volts
6) <1 volt
Any thoughts? Very frustrating....
I replaced the CDI with an identical looking one from the local shop, but I am not sure that it is not defective. I retested everything half a dozen times.
Mar 20, 2012 | 12:13 AM
#34
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 14
From: Tracy, California, USA
[My comments embedded in blue...]
First off, thanks to Lynn for the awesome how-to's on checking the ignition systems.
[Thanks
]
My ATV is a "Star X" 200cc air cooled. It ran fine for a few months then no start / no spark. I changed the spark plug, and ran the following tests, and then replaced the CDI, and still no spark, so either I missed soemthing, or there is more to this....
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) open (dead short when I hit the kill switch) [this is good]
2) 319 ohms [sounds reasonable not knowing any specific specs for your quad]
3) 187 ohms [sounds reasonable not knowing any specific specs for your quad]
4) 44 volts (28 volts when connected to CDI with everything, 44 volts when trigger disconnected) [Wow. What a good idea you had to measure the AC Ignition Power both connected, disconnected, and connected back up with just the trigger signal disconnected. In normal operation the CDI yanks around the stator AC Ignition Power voltage when (which is inherently cuurent limited), so measuring AC power with the CDI connected leads to meaningless voltages. Is the stator not putting out enough voltage, or is the CDI yanking it too hard? Who knows? You cannot tell from that alone. But in your case you disconnected the trigger voltage while the CDI was hooked up and the AC voltage changed back to 44 volts AC (from 28 volts). This is significant...
Every so often someone like you comes along as says something coming right in from left field and bops me on the side of my head. Why did I not think of this before?
I'm pretty sure that your test shows is that your CDI *is* getting triggered by your trigger signal, something that is difficult to measure and has caused a lot of consternation in the past based on the limitations of most meters. Because if the CDI is not getting triggered then the CDI should not be yanking around the stator AC power voltage. If it is it should be yanked around. Your results shows that. This will only work on AC powered ignition systems. It does not apply to DC powered ignition systems.
I'm going to verify this testing idea with my AC powered ignition this weekend. If it pans out then this is a really good test to add to all the others. This could be a very brilliant observation on your part. Let me verify that this weekend..
.
Unfortunately this insight may not be related to your problem. Let's say your CDI is getting triggered. The output stage in the CDI could still be defective, and the coil could be defective too (as well as the wire that connects these two). But it sounds like you're down to another bad CDI or the coil. You could measure the wire from the CDI output to the coil by unplugging the CDI and measuring the resistance from the CDI output pin in the harness to ground. You should measure a very low resistance (like 0.7 ohms or so), but not zero ohms. That is measuring continuity from the CDI to the coil, and through the coil primary to ground.]
5) .2 volts [OK ]
6) <1 volt [Definitely not OK. Sounds like the coil primary is not getting driven by the CDI.]
Any thoughts? Very frustrating....
I replaced the CDI with an identical looking one from the local shop, but I am not sure that it is not defective. I retested everything half a dozen times.
[Thanks
] My ATV is a "Star X" 200cc air cooled. It ran fine for a few months then no start / no spark. I changed the spark plug, and ran the following tests, and then replaced the CDI, and still no spark, so either I missed soemthing, or there is more to this....
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) open (dead short when I hit the kill switch) [this is good]
2) 319 ohms [sounds reasonable not knowing any specific specs for your quad]
3) 187 ohms [sounds reasonable not knowing any specific specs for your quad]
4) 44 volts (28 volts when connected to CDI with everything, 44 volts when trigger disconnected) [Wow. What a good idea you had to measure the AC Ignition Power both connected, disconnected, and connected back up with just the trigger signal disconnected. In normal operation the CDI yanks around the stator AC Ignition Power voltage when (which is inherently cuurent limited), so measuring AC power with the CDI connected leads to meaningless voltages. Is the stator not putting out enough voltage, or is the CDI yanking it too hard? Who knows? You cannot tell from that alone. But in your case you disconnected the trigger voltage while the CDI was hooked up and the AC voltage changed back to 44 volts AC (from 28 volts). This is significant...
Every so often someone like you comes along as says something coming right in from left field and bops me on the side of my head. Why did I not think of this before?
I'm pretty sure that your test shows is that your CDI *is* getting triggered by your trigger signal, something that is difficult to measure and has caused a lot of consternation in the past based on the limitations of most meters. Because if the CDI is not getting triggered then the CDI should not be yanking around the stator AC power voltage. If it is it should be yanked around. Your results shows that. This will only work on AC powered ignition systems. It does not apply to DC powered ignition systems.
I'm going to verify this testing idea with my AC powered ignition this weekend. If it pans out then this is a really good test to add to all the others. This could be a very brilliant observation on your part. Let me verify that this weekend..
.Unfortunately this insight may not be related to your problem. Let's say your CDI is getting triggered. The output stage in the CDI could still be defective, and the coil could be defective too (as well as the wire that connects these two). But it sounds like you're down to another bad CDI or the coil. You could measure the wire from the CDI output to the coil by unplugging the CDI and measuring the resistance from the CDI output pin in the harness to ground. You should measure a very low resistance (like 0.7 ohms or so), but not zero ohms. That is measuring continuity from the CDI to the coil, and through the coil primary to ground.]
5) .2 volts [OK ]
6) <1 volt [Definitely not OK. Sounds like the coil primary is not getting driven by the CDI.]
Any thoughts? Very frustrating....
I replaced the CDI with an identical looking one from the local shop, but I am not sure that it is not defective. I retested everything half a dozen times.
Mar 20, 2012 | 06:02 PM
#35
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Lynn - Do you think it is possible I got a defective CDI? The new one and old one test out the same. The new CDI had different writing on the casing, and the local dealer did not know if it was an AC or DC fired CDI. Other than the writing, it was identical.
Mar 21, 2012 | 12:48 AM
#36
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 14
From: Tracy, California, USA
Yes it could be a bad CDI, and it could be a bad coil too.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.
Mar 21, 2012 | 10:46 AM
#37
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Yes it could be a bad CDI, and it could be a bad coil too.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.
I have ordered another coil and a 2nd new CDI.
Mar 21, 2012 | 10:24 PM
#38
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 14
From: Tracy, California, USA
Let us know how it turns out when you get the new parts...
Mar 21, 2012 | 11:04 PM
#39
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
No. The storage [C]apacitor inside the CDI (which is the the "C" in the acronym "CDI") is grounded through the ignition coil primary winding. The charge rate is very slow compared to the firing time, so the coil primary just looks like a ground wire at the slow charge rate. When the CDI fires the ignition coil driven hard and fast. The inductance of the coil primary is significant at those sort of frequencies which then looks like a step up transformer. If you disconnect the coil then the capacitor doesn't charge and nothing works.
Let us know how it turns out when you get the new parts...
Let us know how it turns out when you get the new parts...
Thanks for the enlightening! I will definitely post the result. I guess the only part left after that is the stator....
Apr 14, 2012 | 06:12 PM
#40
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Yes it could be a bad CDI, and it could be a bad coil too.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.
This gets into the area where things maybe cannot be measured anymore and you have to make a best guess. Your CDI looks like it is getting input power and a trigger, yet you don't get an output from the CDI. But that could also be due to the coil being defective. If it were me I'd change both at the same time. Both are really cheap. When thinking about this try to imagine how much it would cost for a Honda coil and a Honda CDI together. By comparison the generic chinese stuff is a bargain. Spring is coming on and time is getting short to great riding experiences.