Panda 90 - No Spark
#1
11-16-2011, 05:25 PM
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Panda 90 - No Spark
Hey guys,
I bought a 90cc Kazuma Panda off of a guy here local. I have never owned an ATV before, but I do have some mechaincal and electircal knowhow....this this has me stumped. From what I have read it appears I have an AC CDI.
I disconnected the AC ignition power line from the CDI and while cranking got about 45 vAC.
On the kill switch measured at the pin of the cdi I've got 11VDC without cranking and 26 when I crank....I am guessing this isnt normal. To top it off I get 27 VAC while cranking and my meter bounces all over the place when I am not cranking....
Any idea what's going on? I am stumped.
I bought a 90cc Kazuma Panda off of a guy here local. I have never owned an ATV before, but I do have some mechaincal and electircal knowhow....this this has me stumped. From what I have read it appears I have an AC CDI.
I disconnected the AC ignition power line from the CDI and while cranking got about 45 vAC.
On the kill switch measured at the pin of the cdi I've got 11VDC without cranking and 26 when I crank....I am guessing this isnt normal. To top it off I get 27 VAC while cranking and my meter bounces all over the place when I am not cranking....
Any idea what's going on? I am stumped.
#2
11-16-2011, 06:29 PM
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Here is the generic "no spark" troubleshooting procedure for a five pin CDI:
Quote:
The first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches abd kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark. DONE. No spark.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure? .379 Kohms.
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure? 113ohms
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure? 43VAC
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure? .3VAC
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure? Shows OL....what does it mean?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test. 7VAC
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on.... Voltage fluxuate between 6.9 and 7.4 v
Quote:
The first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches abd kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark. DONE. No spark.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure? .379 Kohms.
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure? 113ohms
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure? 43VAC
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure? .3VAC
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure? Shows OL....what does it mean?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test. 7VAC
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on.... Voltage fluxuate between 6.9 and 7.4 v
#3
11-16-2011, 07:05 PM
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My ignition switch has 3 positions. One obviously is off...the other 2 will both let you turn over the engine with the starter. Normall I have roughly 1.7 VAC going into the coil...after flipping the switch to the center position I got that voltage to jump to 7.8, so I grounded out the spark plug and got 1 single spark...now im back to 1.7...
I am ready to set this thing on fire.
I am ready to set this thing on fire.
#4
11-16-2011, 11:27 PM
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I suspect measurement error. Please try this again. If it persists we can look into this deeper
.
#5
11-16-2011, 11:38 PM
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My comments embedded in blue...
Here is the generic "no spark" troubleshooting procedure for a five pin CDI:
Quote:
The first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches abd kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark. DONE. No spark. [OK]
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure? .379 Kohms. [OK]
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure? 113ohms [OK]
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure? 43VAC [OK]
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure? .3VAC [OK]
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure? Shows OL....what does it mean? [This is wrong. This wire should go directly to the coil primary winding, and inside the coil there are just a few hundred turns of wire that then connects to ground. Look at the wire color for the ignition coil at the CDI connector. Find the same color wire at the coil. Measure to see if these two wire ends are actually connected. Also measure the resistance of the ignition coil primary to ground at the coil. Does it still read open loop (OL) there?]
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test. 7VAC
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on.... Voltage fluxuate between 6.9 and 7.4 v [I would concentrate on the coil primary reading open first. Nothing will work until that is fixed. If you can get the coil primary to read less than an ohm (but not zero ohms), and it still makes no spark then we can move on. But the coil primary reading open is the place to start...]
Quote:
The first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches abd kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark. DONE. No spark. [OK]
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure? .379 Kohms. [OK]
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure? 113ohms [OK]
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure? 43VAC [OK]
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure? .3VAC [OK]
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure? Shows OL....what does it mean? [This is wrong. This wire should go directly to the coil primary winding, and inside the coil there are just a few hundred turns of wire that then connects to ground. Look at the wire color for the ignition coil at the CDI connector. Find the same color wire at the coil. Measure to see if these two wire ends are actually connected. Also measure the resistance of the ignition coil primary to ground at the coil. Does it still read open loop (OL) there?]
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test. 7VAC
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on.... Voltage fluxuate between 6.9 and 7.4 v [I would concentrate on the coil primary reading open first. Nothing will work until that is fixed. If you can get the coil primary to read less than an ohm (but not zero ohms), and it still makes no spark then we can move on. But the coil primary reading open is the place to start...]
#6
11-17-2011, 06:42 AM
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#7
11-17-2011, 07:06 AM
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After I figured out that I had done the test with that line unhooked, I doubled back and redid everything.
Only thing different is that with my coil plugged up I am only getting .5V on the ignition coil (y/b). When I unhook the coil I get 1.5V.
When I ran the test last night I was getting 7V on this wire. The CDI is the only thing I can think of that would account for this kind of fluxuation since it's still getting the same 43V input on the AC ignition power line.
Only thing different is that with my coil plugged up I am only getting .5V on the ignition coil (y/b). When I unhook the coil I get 1.5V.
When I ran the test last night I was getting 7V on this wire. The CDI is the only thing I can think of that would account for this kind of fluxuation since it's still getting the same 43V input on the AC ignition power line.
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#8
11-17-2011, 10:22 PM
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The AC voltage at the ignition coil should go to zero if the CDI isn't getting triggered. If it is getting triggered then you should see the spark events (random voltages at the ignition coil). Thus it does look like the CDI is at fault. There is always the possibility that the ignition coil has a shorted turn making for low inductance, but that is less likely than the CDI.
Any voltage read at the ignition coil output of the CDI with the ignition coil unplugged is meaningless. The CDI charges the internal storage capacitor through the ignition coil primary. The coil must be hooked up for anything of the internal circuitry to function.
Any voltage read at the ignition coil output of the CDI with the ignition coil unplugged is meaningless. The CDI charges the internal storage capacitor through the ignition coil primary. The coil must be hooked up for anything of the internal circuitry to function.
After I figured out that I had done the test with that line unhooked, I doubled back and redid everything.
Only thing different is that with my coil plugged up I am only getting .5V on the ignition coil (y/b). When I unhook the coil I get 1.5V.
When I ran the test last night I was getting 7V on this wire. The CDI is the only thing I can think of that would account for this kind of fluxuation since it's still getting the same 43V input on the AC ignition power line.
Only thing different is that with my coil plugged up I am only getting .5V on the ignition coil (y/b). When I unhook the coil I get 1.5V.
When I ran the test last night I was getting 7V on this wire. The CDI is the only thing I can think of that would account for this kind of fluxuation since it's still getting the same 43V input on the AC ignition power line.
#9
11-18-2011, 08:24 AM
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#10
11-20-2011, 10:10 AM
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My wife completely forgot to mention that my CDI showed up in the mail yesterday. Hooked it up this morning and fixed my spark issue immediately. Thanks for all the help Lynn.
The story on this ATV is that I had someone sell it to me for $20 because it st in their garage for the past 4 years and was never run....one of those proijects he never got around to I guess. The gas tank was completely gummed up a wonderful orange sledge. I have been ordering the parts I needed one at a time in order to keep myself from dumping a bunch of money into something I knew nothing about.
I spent the better half of the morn ing cleaning out the gas tank with carb cleaner and gas, that is ready to go back on with the issue of the petcock. I leaked terribly, so I have to get one of those. I now know the ATV will at least run since I gave it a shot of starting fluid and it fired right up.
Anyway, thanks again Lynn for the electrical help, you made my first ATV project a success thus far.
The story on this ATV is that I had someone sell it to me for $20 because it st in their garage for the past 4 years and was never run....one of those proijects he never got around to I guess. The gas tank was completely gummed up a wonderful orange sledge. I have been ordering the parts I needed one at a time in order to keep myself from dumping a bunch of money into something I knew nothing about.
I spent the better half of the morn ing cleaning out the gas tank with carb cleaner and gas, that is ready to go back on with the issue of the petcock. I leaked terribly, so I have to get one of those. I now know the ATV will at least run since I gave it a shot of starting fluid and it fired right up.
Anyway, thanks again Lynn for the electrical help, you made my first ATV project a success thus far.