Wiring Problems/Bypassing Safeguard
#1
05-15-2012, 11:01 PM
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Wiring Problems/Bypassing Safeguard
I'm trying to get something to work on this bike and I'm having no luck. The main problem is the electrical and trying to bypass the safeguard box since the remote for it is lost.
This is a FSN 110cc Chinese type ATV with a Safeguard alarm type system.
I got a few pics for the way the wiring looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/u3eQj.jpg
Wiring colors for the following connectors
https://i.imgur.com/3Euoy.jpg
This is for the big male and female connections for the safeguard. If I keep this unplugged will it bypass the system or should I leave it in?
https://i.imgur.com/BbScS.jpg
This is the other connection coming from the safeguard and both wires are white.
https://i.imgur.com/uH9T8.jpg
This connection looks like it fits the one above but if I hook it up and try and turn the lights on the lights wont turn on. I only hooked up one light to try to see if the lights turn on but I don't think all needs to be hooked up to test this.Is the safeguard box somehow not letting me turn on the lights?
https://i.imgur.com/9lqP0.jpg
There is a few green wires that all go together and I'm thinking they are all ground wires. Should they all be connected like?
https://i.imgur.com/eZKYg.jpg
Here is 4 black wires connected together. They lead to these 4 connections:
1) Safeguard Box
2) Ignition Switch
3) Male safeguard connector
4) Handbrake Switch
Adding this info in case it is needed to bypass safeguard box.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/559048372/HOT_Selling_One_way_Motorcycle_Alarm.html
This isn't the type of safeguard box I have on this ATV since I don't know what kind it is but at the bottom of this link has some info and what a safeguard is and some kind of wiring diagram.
This is a FSN 110cc Chinese type ATV with a Safeguard alarm type system.
I got a few pics for the way the wiring looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/u3eQj.jpg
Wiring colors for the following connectors
https://i.imgur.com/3Euoy.jpg
This is for the big male and female connections for the safeguard. If I keep this unplugged will it bypass the system or should I leave it in?
https://i.imgur.com/BbScS.jpg
This is the other connection coming from the safeguard and both wires are white.
https://i.imgur.com/uH9T8.jpg
This connection looks like it fits the one above but if I hook it up and try and turn the lights on the lights wont turn on. I only hooked up one light to try to see if the lights turn on but I don't think all needs to be hooked up to test this.Is the safeguard box somehow not letting me turn on the lights?
https://i.imgur.com/9lqP0.jpg
There is a few green wires that all go together and I'm thinking they are all ground wires. Should they all be connected like?
https://i.imgur.com/eZKYg.jpg
Here is 4 black wires connected together. They lead to these 4 connections:
1) Safeguard Box
2) Ignition Switch
3) Male safeguard connector
4) Handbrake Switch
Adding this info in case it is needed to bypass safeguard box.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/559048372/HOT_Selling_One_way_Motorcycle_Alarm.html
This isn't the type of safeguard box I have on this ATV since I don't know what kind it is but at the bottom of this link has some info and what a safeguard is and some kind of wiring diagram.
#2
05-16-2012, 01:46 AM
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I'm really tired and have to go to bed. I'll study this tomorrow, but in the mean time please explain in detail what problem you're having. You say that the "main problem is electrical", but what? Is the starter not cranking? Does the battery not hold a charge? Are you not getting spark? Maybe it just doesn't start for unknown reasons?
Have you ever seen this quad run in your presence? What knowledge do you have about the condiditons working up to this scenario? Did the problem suddenly appear out of the blue? Or did it gradually get worse over time?
It seems you are focusing for some reason on the remote module wiring. OK, but to disable the remote functions completely all you do is unplug it at the remote receive module. That's it... Then everything works as before except that you can longer turn off the quad with the ignition switch. You have to use the handlebar kill switch instead.
Have you ever seen this quad run in your presence? What knowledge do you have about the condiditons working up to this scenario? Did the problem suddenly appear out of the blue? Or did it gradually get worse over time?
It seems you are focusing for some reason on the remote module wiring. OK, but to disable the remote functions completely all you do is unplug it at the remote receive module. That's it... Then everything works as before except that you can longer turn off the quad with the ignition switch. You have to use the handlebar kill switch instead.
#3
05-16-2012, 03:17 PM
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When the people were riding this one day the thing stopped and no longer would turn over with the electric start. The problem might lie within that safeguard box messing with the electrical. I know how to do service on the engine but it seems like the problem is in the electrical right now.
The starter on it just doesn't want to turn over the engine even if I put the battery in parallel with another battery which turned over the other starter on another same kind of bike just fine. There might be a short or that safeguard box is messing with it. The oil is just fine so it shouldn't be causing too much the starter to work harder and pull more amps then it should.
I'm thinking there might a cross somewhere since other people tried to do some electrical work on it before I looked at it and would help if I had some kind of wiring diagram for this.
One another thing is that just to test and see if part of the electrical system is good is to see where I plug that female connection for the lights. The only other place to connect it to is that safeguard box but even if I connect it the lights still wont work.
The starter on it just doesn't want to turn over the engine even if I put the battery in parallel with another battery which turned over the other starter on another same kind of bike just fine. There might be a short or that safeguard box is messing with it. The oil is just fine so it shouldn't be causing too much the starter to work harder and pull more amps then it should.
I'm thinking there might a cross somewhere since other people tried to do some electrical work on it before I looked at it and would help if I had some kind of wiring diagram for this.
One another thing is that just to test and see if part of the electrical system is good is to see where I plug that female connection for the lights. The only other place to connect it to is that safeguard box but even if I connect it the lights still wont work.
#4
05-17-2012, 12:06 AM
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My comments embedded in blue:
Again I need to know the answer to the question: Does the starter turn (and if not the answers to the other related questions), or does the starter turn the engine but the quad doesn't start.
In you pictures you show badly out of focus closeups of a group of wires and ask if they should be connected together. How could anyone possibly know from that? You need to know where all those wires go to, and then analyze if it makes sense for them to be connected together. But in general, quads are wired such that all wire functions have a unique color, and therefore colors that are the same are all wired together. But the real question is: Do these wires look like they were connected professionally at a factory, or does this look like some hack job by an amateur?
When the people were riding this one day the thing stopped and no longer would turn over with the electric start. The problem might lie within that safeguard box messing with the electrical. [Maybe so, but this is easy to test. Just unplug the remote module from the wiring harness (you're calling a safegaurd box - I looked at your wire diagram - we are talking about the same thing) and it is completely out of the picture. If it still doesn't turn over then it isn't the remote] I know how to do service on the engine but it seems like the problem is in the electrical right now.
The starter on it just doesn't want to turn over the engine even if I put the battery in parallel with another battery which turned over the other starter on another same kind of bike just fine.
[By turning over please verify that this means the starter motor doesn't turn at all. You turn on the ignition switch, apply the brakes, and press the start button, and nothing happens, right? Do you hear a "click" when you press the start button? Does your brake light light up?
Some people define "not turning over" and the starter turns but the engine isn't firing. These are two completely separate paths, so I need to know exactly what you mean.] There might be a short or that safeguard box is messing with it. The oil is just fine so it shouldn't be causing too much the starter to work harder and pull more amps then it should.
I'm thinking there might a cross somewhere since other people tried to do some electrical work on it before I looked at it and would help if I had some kind of wiring diagram for this.
One another thing is that just to test and see if part of the electrical system is good is to see where I plug that female connection for the lights. The only other place to connect it to is that safeguard box but even if I connect it the lights still wont work. [If the remote has a second two pin connector then this is what drives the alarm. Almost all remotes on quads these days doesn't have anything to do with lights - the original remote design (which was developed for motorcycles) has two output wires on the nine pin connector for driving turn signal lights when the alarm is tripped, but those two pins on your nine pin connector are listed as blank - as they should be.]
The starter on it just doesn't want to turn over the engine even if I put the battery in parallel with another battery which turned over the other starter on another same kind of bike just fine.
[By turning over please verify that this means the starter motor doesn't turn at all. You turn on the ignition switch, apply the brakes, and press the start button, and nothing happens, right? Do you hear a "click" when you press the start button? Does your brake light light up?
Some people define "not turning over" and the starter turns but the engine isn't firing. These are two completely separate paths, so I need to know exactly what you mean.] There might be a short or that safeguard box is messing with it. The oil is just fine so it shouldn't be causing too much the starter to work harder and pull more amps then it should.
I'm thinking there might a cross somewhere since other people tried to do some electrical work on it before I looked at it and would help if I had some kind of wiring diagram for this.
One another thing is that just to test and see if part of the electrical system is good is to see where I plug that female connection for the lights. The only other place to connect it to is that safeguard box but even if I connect it the lights still wont work. [If the remote has a second two pin connector then this is what drives the alarm. Almost all remotes on quads these days doesn't have anything to do with lights - the original remote design (which was developed for motorcycles) has two output wires on the nine pin connector for driving turn signal lights when the alarm is tripped, but those two pins on your nine pin connector are listed as blank - as they should be.]
In you pictures you show badly out of focus closeups of a group of wires and ask if they should be connected together. How could anyone possibly know from that? You need to know where all those wires go to, and then analyze if it makes sense for them to be connected together. But in general, quads are wired such that all wire functions have a unique color, and therefore colors that are the same are all wired together. But the real question is: Do these wires look like they were connected professionally at a factory, or does this look like some hack job by an amateur?
#5
05-17-2012, 05:02 PM
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When I did some other tests the starter won't turn over. Tried to run power directly to it and did a test to bypass solenoid to see if that is the problem. Is there any other tests I can do to check and see if the starter is good?
Sorry if my pictures are not that great took it from my phone don't have any other camera. was wondering how the power gets to the light since the lights wiring has 4 connection for each of the lights. 2 back lights then the 2 front ones. then that 2 pin connector which I believe has to provide power to all the lights. since I'm trying to bypass that safeguard connecting this to that wont do. that is the only connection I see that the lights can be connected to.
One more question and that is how much amps should these starts be drawing?
Starter 08 for Jetmoto 50cc to 110cc Engines - St280-08 - Jetmoto Parts - Chinese Atv Parts - - Chinese
This is the type of starter on these. Do they draw enough amps to kill my 2002 Olds Alero battery while the car is at idle with the alternator working? it only took around 5 to 6 turns of the starter to kill the battery and shut off the car.
Also is there a good place to look for a wiring diagram for this ATV? Having this would be good so I can check for cross wiring and it should show where the 2 pin connector for the lights should go.
Sorry if my pictures are not that great took it from my phone don't have any other camera. was wondering how the power gets to the light since the lights wiring has 4 connection for each of the lights. 2 back lights then the 2 front ones. then that 2 pin connector which I believe has to provide power to all the lights. since I'm trying to bypass that safeguard connecting this to that wont do. that is the only connection I see that the lights can be connected to.
One more question and that is how much amps should these starts be drawing?
Starter 08 for Jetmoto 50cc to 110cc Engines - St280-08 - Jetmoto Parts - Chinese Atv Parts - - Chinese
This is the type of starter on these. Do they draw enough amps to kill my 2002 Olds Alero battery while the car is at idle with the alternator working? it only took around 5 to 6 turns of the starter to kill the battery and shut off the car.
Also is there a good place to look for a wiring diagram for this ATV? Having this would be good so I can check for cross wiring and it should show where the 2 pin connector for the lights should go.
#6
05-18-2012, 12:43 AM
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My responses in blue...
When I did some other tests the starter won't turn over. Tried to run power directly to it and did a test to bypass solenoid to see if that is the problem. Is there any other tests I can do to check and see if the starter is good? [Pull the starter out and try to run it outside the engine. You'll need to hook the positive battery terminal to the starter input post with a set of jumper cables, and also hook the starter case to the negative battery post.]
Sorry if my pictures are not that great took it from my phone don't have any other camera. was wondering how the power gets to the light since the lights wiring has 4 connection for each of the lights. 2 back lights then the 2 front ones. then that 2 pin connector which I believe has to provide power to all the lights. since I'm trying to bypass that safeguard connecting this to that wont do. that is the only connection I see that the lights can be connected to.
One more question and that is how much amps should these starts be drawing? [35 amps. A car starter draws a couple hundred amps. So your car battery will suffice. Just look at the difference in size between the car battery and the quad battery...]
Starter 08 for Jetmoto 50cc to 110cc Engines - St280-08 - Jetmoto Parts - Chinese Atv Parts - - Chinese
This is the type of starter on these. Do they draw enough amps to kill my 2002 Olds Alero battery while the car is at idle with the alternator working? it only took around 5 to 6 turns of the starter to kill the battery and shut off the car [This isn't possible without other symptoms such as the wires going to the starter getting blinking hot. Even then it doesn't make any sense unless your car battery is on its way out too. Even a small car battery is 50 amp-hours. A good car battery getting discharged in just a few seconds? This does not compute. A good fully charged 50 amp-hour battery could deliver 250 amps for about 10 minutes. And all this time be dissipating 1500 watts or so. You didn't report any heat being generated... I think maybe you are fooling yourself somehow.]
Also is there a good place to look for a wiring diagram for this ATV? Having this would be good so I can check for cross wiring and it should show where the 2 pin connector for the lights should go. [I don't have, nor have I seen, a wiring diagram for your quad. But I would look at other 110cc wiring diagrams out there. The start circuitry is going to be fairly similar - especially if you find one with a remote module. Most light connectors have three wires. On the headlights there is low beam, high beam, and ground. On the tail lights there is tail light, brake light, and ground.]
Sorry if my pictures are not that great took it from my phone don't have any other camera. was wondering how the power gets to the light since the lights wiring has 4 connection for each of the lights. 2 back lights then the 2 front ones. then that 2 pin connector which I believe has to provide power to all the lights. since I'm trying to bypass that safeguard connecting this to that wont do. that is the only connection I see that the lights can be connected to.
One more question and that is how much amps should these starts be drawing? [35 amps. A car starter draws a couple hundred amps. So your car battery will suffice. Just look at the difference in size between the car battery and the quad battery...]
Starter 08 for Jetmoto 50cc to 110cc Engines - St280-08 - Jetmoto Parts - Chinese Atv Parts - - Chinese
This is the type of starter on these. Do they draw enough amps to kill my 2002 Olds Alero battery while the car is at idle with the alternator working? it only took around 5 to 6 turns of the starter to kill the battery and shut off the car [This isn't possible without other symptoms such as the wires going to the starter getting blinking hot. Even then it doesn't make any sense unless your car battery is on its way out too. Even a small car battery is 50 amp-hours. A good car battery getting discharged in just a few seconds? This does not compute. A good fully charged 50 amp-hour battery could deliver 250 amps for about 10 minutes. And all this time be dissipating 1500 watts or so. You didn't report any heat being generated... I think maybe you are fooling yourself somehow.]
Also is there a good place to look for a wiring diagram for this ATV? Having this would be good so I can check for cross wiring and it should show where the 2 pin connector for the lights should go. [I don't have, nor have I seen, a wiring diagram for your quad. But I would look at other 110cc wiring diagrams out there. The start circuitry is going to be fairly similar - especially if you find one with a remote module. Most light connectors have three wires. On the headlights there is low beam, high beam, and ground. On the tail lights there is tail light, brake light, and ground.]
#7
05-22-2012, 06:18 PM
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Was busy with other things so I couldn't work on the ATV for a few days but I figured out the lights on the ATV. I thought the lighting was the same like the other ATV but with this one the lights are powered up by the stator and not the battery. The brake lights do work off the battery though so I think I'm good with the electrical for now.
One question I still have is about that starter. Tomorrow I need to get a starter for this ATV since the brushes went bad on it. I'm going to check this new starter and see how it does on the same battery I used for the other ATV's starter. The battery I was using is a car battery and has the numbers "65" on the front so does that mean its a 65AH battery? With that How long could the starter be used before running the battery dead? I will try a load test once I get the new starter to see if the battery I am using can handle it or not.
One question I still have is about that starter. Tomorrow I need to get a starter for this ATV since the brushes went bad on it. I'm going to check this new starter and see how it does on the same battery I used for the other ATV's starter. The battery I was using is a car battery and has the numbers "65" on the front so does that mean its a 65AH battery? With that How long could the starter be used before running the battery dead? I will try a load test once I get the new starter to see if the battery I am using can handle it or not.
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#8
05-22-2012, 11:23 PM
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A normal small engine quad starter draws 35 amps under normal load. I don't know about the "65" number, but 65 amp-hours is not that unusual for a car battery.
A good 65 amp-hour battery could turn a quad starter under load for a *long* time. A ballpark rule of thumb is you take the amp-hour rating and divide it by the load current and you get the battery life in hours:
65 (amp-hours) divided by 35 amps equals 1.8 hours (approximately). Your starter would overheat and burn up long before yuor battery goes dead...
A *bad* starter (shorted windings or whatever) could draw a lot more current than normal. But with that excess current comes heat. The power dissipation in watts is the current times the battery voltage. Lets say your shorted starter motor draws 150 amps. Your car battery can easily source that kind of current without batting an eyelash. Thus the battery is delivering:
150 (amps) times 12 (volts) equals 1800 watts of power. 1800 watts equal 2.4 horsepower. Where's that power going? 2.4 horsepower being used up produces effects that cannot be ignored. If your not bending metal, lifting weights, or moving large heavy objects from here to there (i.e. doing major work), then the only other alternative is that you're generating lots of heat. Enough heat that you cannot ignore it. There is the quandry...
A good 65 amp-hour battery could turn a quad starter under load for a *long* time. A ballpark rule of thumb is you take the amp-hour rating and divide it by the load current and you get the battery life in hours:
65 (amp-hours) divided by 35 amps equals 1.8 hours (approximately). Your starter would overheat and burn up long before yuor battery goes dead...
A *bad* starter (shorted windings or whatever) could draw a lot more current than normal. But with that excess current comes heat. The power dissipation in watts is the current times the battery voltage. Lets say your shorted starter motor draws 150 amps. Your car battery can easily source that kind of current without batting an eyelash. Thus the battery is delivering:
150 (amps) times 12 (volts) equals 1800 watts of power. 1800 watts equal 2.4 horsepower. Where's that power going? 2.4 horsepower being used up produces effects that cannot be ignored. If your not bending metal, lifting weights, or moving large heavy objects from here to there (i.e. doing major work), then the only other alternative is that you're generating lots of heat. Enough heat that you cannot ignore it. There is the quandry...
#9
05-24-2012, 03:26 AM
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Forgot to add this to one one the questions I wanted to ask and I think I read up on your posts talking about this. What can cause the Ignition switch to NOT turn off the engine when the ignition switch goes to the "off position?
Key Switch 01 for Chinese Atvs - Ks290-01 - Chinese Atv Parts - Top 10 Chinese Parts - - Chinese Atv
This is the type of ignition switch on the ATV.
Key Switch 01 for Chinese Atvs - Ks290-01 - Chinese Atv Parts - Top 10 Chinese Parts - - Chinese Atv
This is the type of ignition switch on the ATV.
#10
05-25-2012, 12:30 AM
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Does your left handlebar kill switch shut off the engine? Most quads have multiple kill switches which are all wire in parallel. Any on of them can shut off the engine. You ignition switch has a section (one of two or more) that is a kill switch too. When you turn the ignition switch off it shorts two wires together (the kill switch wire and ground), which kils spark and stops the engine.
So the question is: Does any kill switch work, or is it just the kill switch section of your ignition switch that doesn't work?
So the question is: Does any kill switch work, or is it just the kill switch section of your ignition switch that doesn't work?
Forgot to add this to one one the questions I wanted to ask and I think I read up on your posts talking about this. What can cause the Ignition switch to NOT turn off the engine when the ignition switch goes to the "off position?
Key Switch 01 for Chinese Atvs - Ks290-01 - Chinese Atv Parts - Top 10 Chinese Parts - - Chinese Atv
This is the type of ignition switch on the ATV.
Key Switch 01 for Chinese Atvs - Ks290-01 - Chinese Atv Parts - Top 10 Chinese Parts - - Chinese Atv
This is the type of ignition switch on the ATV.