Please excuse my lack of utility knowledge, I have been a 2stroke boy for too long(Suzuki LT250R/12yrs) and now own a Raptor. I am moving to a utility bike now and I am not up on the scene yet. The AC500i is a strong contender for my bike of choice, but it does not have a locking front end correct? I saw in another post something about a 'niteowl locker'? I assume this locks the front wheels together?
I have heard rumors of lockers tearing up front ends, is this true?


I am somewhat familiar with the SP500HO, and am a little shy of the grizzly660 being new from the ground up. I am more into the "sport" 4x4 riding and a locking front end is what I am after. I drove my buddy's SP500HO last night thru some pretty 'hairy' terrain and I can see the value of a true locking front end.

Give me your opinions of your AC.

Desperately seeking knowledge. Replies appreciated.

thx,
chris

 

Chris-
You are correct in that the new '02 500's do NOT have a locking front diff. from the factory. I have heard several rumors however that the diff can be modified to a "locked" position, similar to the 250 and 300's, but I don't know if that's true or not.

I am a bit confused to your "sport" oriented 4x4 useage, and the "need for a diff. lock". To me, "sport" oriented means one thing-speed. If this is the case, look towards the Kaw 650 or Griz 660 honestly-both have the speed, and diff. lock feature you're interested in. AC is definately not the fastest machine out there by any means. And, it does not offer a true diff. lock standard. The "niteowl locker", is simply that-Niteowl has modified his front end, by welding the gearing I believe, thus being a true locker up front. This is not an aftermarket mod you can buy, but rather, something you have to do yourself, with your own skills, or a friend-whatever works.

In all honesty, under most circumstances, you won't need that true diff. lock advantage. I've just uploaded several pics of GrizRick and I's latest ride this last weekend. A few of the pics are of my '00 'Cat in the "three-wheel" position, with one front tire in the air, and still climbing. AC uses a design that is superior to most other front limited slips, in that it actually works. I've given a review of this in action before, several months ago-basically in my experience, when I get one tire up like that, if I start to slip in the back, I'll give it a little more gas, the front grabs traction and just crawls right over, regarless of how many tires are on the ground and how many are in the air. The terrain we were in was very steep, extremely loose dirt and rock, in which traction is key, as speed is not possible. Rick and I both had to crawl up this stuff, with only traction-not momentum, as it was so steep our front ends were coming off the ground entirely. Adding speed to the equation here, we'd have flipped for sure. Rick has a bunch more pictures I'll be posting, soon as he sends them to me, with a bunch more of the "three wheel" effect.

Granted, this is all very loose dirt, steep uphill grades, and rock that we experienced this weekend, but I have had my 'Cat in all other terrain imagineable, without ever having a problem with my front diff leaving me stranded. Whether it be mud, snow, (take a look at my snow pics below too), dirt or rock, it doesn't matter-the 'Cat handles it all with ease, regardless of the front diff and how most THINK it works-truth is, Rick is totally locked by welding his front end too, there is nowhere he could go that I couldn't on my 'Cat, no matter what kind of terrain it was. Simply put, I honestly don't think that should even be a deciding factor for you in your new quad purchase-if looking at the 'Cat.

In regards to the SP, were you able to take it down any extremely steep, rutted, muddy hills? Reason I ask is even though the SP's have a locked front end, it is difficult to engage your front tires while going down hill in this steep type of terrain-especially in mud. As you probably know, it requires a 1/5th rear wheel slippage to engage the front tires, and without that, you're in 2 wheel drive. I've seen this in action while elk hunting last year on two different SP's, and both nearly flipped, due to rear wheel drive downhill, while I walked with ease-because I had the fronts engaged. Some say there is a way to overcome this, others say you really have to be careful-that is a question I do not want to find out under extreme terrain in slippery mud going down steep hills.

I think if you're looking for a rock solid utility machine that does great in all terrain and under all conditions, the 'Cat is an excellent choice. If however you are more concerned with going fast, you should look the other way. If speed is your thing, again look into the Kaw 650, Griz 660 or the new SP700 if you must have the biggest. Personnally, I don't see the need for anything larger than 500cc's anyway, as it has been more than enough to handle all of my working needs, towing huge loads, climbing steep hills, etc. With 500cc's, I've NEVER been underpowered.

Anyway, Best of Luck in the decision, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask, I'd be glad to try and help,

Mike

 

I think if your after a sport the 650 Kaw would be a better choice as it's lower centre of gravity & solid rear axle makes it a sportier ride. However if you go Ind-Cat the locker will make it much harder to steer & with the independent rear it's greater ability to keep all 4 tires on the ground remove some of the necesity for a diff lock.

 

Cowboy, my lack of knowledge of 4x4 bikes is glaring, isn't it? The 'sport' part of the 4x4 to me is the hill climbs, muddin', etc. You know, the fun stuff. I had generally thought of 4x4 utility bike are more for work. I see that there can be a lot of fun had on an ATV 'utility' with out going ***** out in top gear - and that is what I am after. My current ride (Raptor) allows me to put if I want to due to the 4stroke, but it really doesn't like it, and I have it geared down. Nothing against the bike, it's an awesome ride. I have made up my mind to move to a utility.

My buddy says his SP500HO has 'true' 4whl drive, and that limited slip front ends do not fair well. That was the purpose for the thread as the AC dealer told me that this limited slip in the AC actually worked. Well, I can test ride his ATV's but there isn't anywhere to test his claim. So, I posted, hoping someone would tell me honestly if it works or not.

The situation you have described, being in a 'three wheel' position on steep terrain and not having any problems climbing is the feedback I was looking for. I had looked at a few utilities and keep coming back to the AC. It seems to be built better and more durable, like you said, a rock solid machine that does great in all terain and all conditions.

I did take the SP500HO down a steep hill with moderate ruts and notices that the rear whls. occassionally lock up, kind of like they had very little weight on them. I guess this is what you were referring to with the front end locking up?? Is the AC balanced well from front to rear?

The info from this forum is valuale from real world experiences. I think I have my mind made up already..........

Now the real question.....Auto??? or 5spd.... Hmmmmm!


thanks guys

 

Chris-
Hey man, don't feel bad at all-in all honesty, I didn't even know AC made quads when I was looking for mine. It was actually the guys on this site that got me interested, and informed me of their useage and qualities. I had to search around for information on Arctic Cat as well as finding a dealer. When I went to the dealer to inquire about the quads, the first day I walked in, the owner just threw me the key, said take it for a ride, then we'll talk when you get back. I was blown away by that statement, told him well, I was just interested in looking-he'd caught me off guard about the test ride, so I just looked then left. Went back a week or two later and actually took him up on the test ride, the rest is history.

After your latest post here, I think our terms for "sport" riding are about the same. To me, the sport in "utility machines" comes directly from the deep mud pits you drop into with mud/water spraying up everywhere, soaking you with water, covering you and the quad with huge clumps of mud; steep hill climbs where you're in 4 wheel low range, crawling up things so steep you're leaning over the front rack looking down at your winch, and that still isn't enough weight to keep the front end down-all while your tires are grasping, clawing and pulling at everything they can to crest you to the top. Then, you get into the technically challenging rock climbs, with frequent near-rollover crawling on uneven terrain, doing everything you can to keep the machine rubber side down, while successfully negotiating the intended course. That is the sport I see in utility machines. However, you are correct in that utilities are for work as well-lord knows I've worked my machine to hell and back, yet it keeps begging for more. I did however just finish a boat trailer modification to haul logs with, so I no longer have to drag logs across the ground, causing a lot of undue stress to the 'Cat. Instead, I just hook up my new trailer to the 'Cat, load up the logs, then pull them along that way. Much easier on both me and the 'Cat!

As for the "three wheel" bit, take a look at my new pics-the ride with GrizRick, click on the photo labeled "more rocks". In that pic you will see my 'Cat climbing up a rather large rock that was about 3' high probably, near verticle. The base of the rock had very loose dirt/smaller rocks, as you can tell from the dust of me crawling in 4 wheel low range up to the obsticle-it was VERY dry. Wheel spin occured at the base of that rock, yet with this picture, you can see the front diff in action, as the left sits firmly on the rock, while the right front is actually nearly 2' in the air! This type of thing is exactly what I'm referring too with "three wheels", and still crawling to the top-something most guys associate with only a "true locked front end". That is the 'Cats front differential in action, as you can see, it works very well. If you look closely, you can barely see my right hand on the throttle, while the rest of me is hidden behind the front box. I did crawl right up that rock, and continued on the trail without the winch in that particular section. The winching you see in the rest of the pictures are simply because the hill was so steep, we would start climbing, then just dig strait into the hillside. Only way up was winching, as our front ends were literally bouncing off the ground, trying to flip over backwards.

This leads me into your next question-the weight distribution issue. AC for one reason or another, splits the weight at about a 60/40 split. The front end weighs 100 lbs. more than the rear end-supposedly to aid in hill climbing abilities. I don't know if this was the true AC design, or just ended up that way with the engine location, radiator weight, winch, etc., but anyway, it makes the machine very effective at hill climbing. The funny thing is, going down is just as good as going up-that one I don't understand, as you'd think the heavier weight up front would cause issues going down, but it's not so with the 'Cat. I'm very impressed with the way it handles steep terrain, both up and down.

As for the auto/manual decision, that is a matter of personal preference only-no advantage either way in my book, both are excellent machines. I prefer the auto myself for what I do, and for hunting ease-climbing steep muddy hills, not having to worry about shifting gears, loosing momentum and not making it to the top. Having constant torque available whenever I hit the gas. Other guys love shifting, so it's all a matter of what you like best.

Anyway, hope that helps a little more, and Best of Luck with the decision,

Mike

 

I can verify Cowboy's statements about the A-C front wheel pulling with one off the ground. My 500 Auto has pulled me through many places that "3 wheel drives" had problems with. In fact, more than once I' ve pushed a Honda through a tough spot, and cruised on through myself. My stucks have mostly been because of ground clearance, not a lack of traction. I'd like to get a new 500i, but money doesn't grow on trees. (Well, it does in my case- but that's another story...)

My first outing with my 'Cat had me driving in mud 'til I got stuck, then shift into 4wheel drive and drive out! The Hondas were really flinging mud and having a time getting thru. Having 489's for the factory tires helped a lot- I think they're a really decent all around tire. When there wasn't much bite in the slick mud, the limited slip just did it's thing and I sailed right on!

I also think it's pretty neat when I'm pushing snow, and at the first slippage, the limited slip engages, the 'Cat squats a little, and it's off to the races! It's an awesome snow moving machine! I've even plowed out my neighbors just for the FUN!

Bottom line? I say go for the 'Cat; you'll not regret it.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

I guess we need to define sport riding, to me it's blasting down back roads & trails at higher rate of speed. Playing in off-road situations like mud & technical high climbs etc, would be what I would call utility seeing as how there called All Terrain Vehicles.

 

The Niteowl locker DOES NOT require welding. IT requires that you fill 6 holes that are in the differentials of the fulltime 4wd 400/454/500 models of the past with 1 screw per hole. He has never tested this on the 2wd selectable models so no one that I know of can honestly say that it will work. Either way, it is EXTREMELY hard TO STEER like this.

As for your choice, I think the AC 500i is one hell of a bike as long as speed is not your consern. And it seems like speed is not a big consern for you.

About the Polaris's weight distrubition. It is actually VERY biased to the rear.As in most of it's weight is reward. But when you are going down hill all that weight wants to get to the bottom before the lighter side does so it tends to lock up and try to come around on you.

With the liquid cooled cats (possibly the 375 also), the weight of the ATV it self is biased more towards the front, but with a rider on the ATV it actually makes the weight very neutral front to rear wise.

As for transmission choices, being that you come from a sport back ground you might rather shifting over the auto, but I would ride both and see what you like.

 

I have heard that the auto has constant torque when you hit the gas, would the 5 spd put more power to the ground???

 

The Auto does put consistant power because it never has to let off the power to shift. Unlike the auto in you car, which has gears that are actually shifted automatically, Most ATV transmissions are Consistantly Varible Transmissions (CVT). This means that they don't have set gears with set gear ratios. The gear ratios are consistantly changing. This is why they say an Auto keeps you in the perfect gear. With a car, you are sometimes in a gear too high, so it gears down and the gear bellow it is normally too low-- but your engine;s revs over take this. With the the CVT your engine can operate at a set RPM and let the transmission put you in the perfect gear.

Now, the manual transmissions DO PUT Down more power to the ground. This has been dyno proven. You also seem to get better fuel mileage with a manual because you can let it lug down in a gear that is too high when you just want to crusie around. The Auto would want to keep you in the RPM range where the motor has it's most power, which is normally higher than you would want to cruise at (I consider cruiseing to be 20-35 mph).