duneme so did i understand with the 105.5 the cylinder is slightly shorter which would lower the the head thus the cams are lower which would change the cam timing, with the stock cam chain? the 103.5 seems like it might be a better choice, but how muchis 1350 euro in the good old green backs? i guess i get concerned that before long you could have a full 760, if you keep buying the other stuff. hey i know you guys are going to sand mt. on 26-27 but what dates after that? i have a lot of reserve time at the end of the month and beginning of may but then the rest of may is open, but we already have plans memorial day at the coast.

 

Again see the complications? For one it's more money than what Sam Coe offers, the 1350 Euro is going to be more like 1600 bucks + 40.00 shipping. Sounds like head has to be modified anyway to run it and you need thier piston. If you ever need to rebuild you need to get that piston from PAMI directly.

I'm not sold on the PAMI kits. I'm sure they are great, but it's just wayyyyyy to expensive and complicated for that matter.

 

well it seems woods is the only bolt it together kits, sure would be nice for us if there were a few more choices.

 

One thing to think about when going with PAMI(which BTW are probably the VERY Best) but they have to modify so many parts to make thier kits as reliable as possiable, when you do need parts or service, you will probably have to go back to them to get it. or TVI.

Hopefully this guys that are trying out these new kits, wil work thier bugs out(head sealing problem) and everyone can then choose FREELY who to go with ,and it will be cheaper for everyone. KUDOS to you guys that are popping ADVIL, and doing ALL the leg work for the rest of us, Thanks.




BIgger.

 

Gary at TVI is supposed to have three kits available by the end of next week. Now I am not sure if he will sell them as kits because he doesn't like to hear a bunch of MF'n.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] I assume he would rather put it together himself. I agree that Ron Woods and Gary are a little bit pricey but I am starting to see there perspective. To put these bigger valves in is were you get the BIg cost increase. There is a lot of machine work involved with these bigger valves, let me tell ya!! My head guy charged me $650.00 to install the valves and to do extensive porting work, he said he will never charge that again! He said, There is a lot of work done here and it doesn't match my time put in. I assume he would jack it up another $150 or so. Another thing, there are certain numbers you have to work with to get these valves installed correctly, like the clearance on overlap! You just can't look at it and figure it out! If your lucky like I was one of these guy's who are versed in doing the bigger valves already, like TVI and or RonWoods will help you out and give you specs. I can tell you right now it is the price of the hardware going into the heads were these guy's are soaking us! 150% mark-up in most cases!!!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] And about that Pami 105mm cylinder, just because it is short isn't a big deal, you just have to get the deck height measurements from Pami versus a stock cylinder then compensate with the correct base gasket thickness. So if his cylinder deck height is .010 below stock then get a .030 thick base gasket, since the stock base gasket is usually .020 thick. The problem with Samcoe right now and I will tell you at least with this 105mm kit is that he has been told that the piston is not being cut right from JE to fit the head!!! Also for some reason JE isn't getting there deck height correct on there pistons!! I beleive that Majorecho had found his to be .020 over the deck and mine I just found out was about .005 to .010 over.

And now this cam timing issue thing! If you can compensate for the deck height with a diffent base gasket Cam timing doesn't become an issue, it also shouldn't matter because there is enough slack in your timing chain to compensate.

 

So basically the pistons are bigger and run the risk of it hitting the head. How do you compensate for that? Doesn't the 0-ring take care of it? I still want this kit but I want to do whatever it takes to ensure it runs reliably.

 

I am not sure I understand him completely (don't really want to waste his time with another e-mail since I am not doing it.)

(I had just typed something but, it didn't make sense after I thought about it - must sleep now - brain not working.)

$1350 X 1.07 (exchange rate) X 1.15 (terriff - I think this is right) = $1661 + $40 freight = $1,700 (makes me feel good about the 680 piston/cylinder/gaskets I got for $650 delivered!)

I still go back to what I like about the 680 - still a nicked cylinder / plenty of material on the walls of the jug - head gasket seals - easy installation.

Bummer is the Pami head, valves, springs, shims, buckets, jug, piston, rings, gaskets, etc. will run you close to $3k. Nice thing is you will have it installed in a day and the sealant will be dry in 24 hours and you will be ready to ride. I think you will get more power from the 720/733 but, you will probably have more downtime and the installation won't be as easy - espically if additional machine work is needed - like O-ring job.

So, everything written above I tried to give as unbiased view as I could and it sure makes it sound wishy-washy (too much like Dirt Wheels). So, putting myself out there, Ron Wood is great but, doesn't offer large bore options - you top out at the head work and they don't offer anything else. Sam Coe doesn't have the experience with the Rotax engine. Pami is the way to go - remember Team Pami has been working on the 650Rotax engine since before it was in the DS. The 650Rotax is a proven engine that has been in the BMW F650 Bike for years (Ron Wood and Pami have the most experience on this engine.) You will pay more for Team Pami but, you truely get what you pay for.

If you go with the Sam Coe, I wish the best for you (I do want to see other options that are reliable). But, know what you are getting yourself into. Based on what I have heard, the kit will cost you more money (after additional work) than just what you pay Sam Coe and you won't be up an running right away. Expect some down-time. If you can live with these things, go for it. Otherwise, you may want to look at a short term solution - piston and cams - until you can save up for the Team Pami kit.

BTW, where do you ride Entomber? Trails, Sand, etc.??? What conditions do you want the additional power for? Drags, trails, hill climbs in the dirt, hill climbs in the sand, etc. Maybe we can come up with some other ideas for you.

 

Entomber, I run the samcoe 733 kit which is stroked and has the 103mm bore. I havent had any problems since the motor was built and i dont shift till 8800 when im drag raceing. I will say though if you do go with samcoe make sure your mechanic or you who ever builds the motor checks everything out carefully. I had my share of problems with crankshaft being true and they also sent me the wrong wrist pin. Glad i cought that. This motor does make some awsome power and ive yet to be beat around here. I smoked a built quadzilla 500 last week by 4 quad lengths in about 250 feet ( 5 times that is) he just wouldnt give up! For the money i dont think you could go wrong!
Hope this helps.

 

Anyone know what Gary is going to offer? Who has any stock cylinders lying around?

 

My buddy called Sam Coe. I will see him tomorrow when he removes his Jug off his DS. He said that Sam himself said the cylinder DOES NOT have to be o-rings. I'm tempted to let my friend do his first and then wait and see what happens. If SAM does my jug I will let him do the head, 2mm larger vavles, and portwork along with springs and shim under buckets. Might as well get it all done and over with.