bye-bye 2-strokes!
Aug 14, 2003 | 11:11 AM
#31
Trailblazer
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
I mean you can't say bye bye 2-strokes there are still a million 2-strokes in the country and in 2006 its going to be like tripled and they cant take away anything below a 2006 that is a 2stroke and think about wut 2 strokes do they have out now umm......blaster, banshee, scrambler, trailblazer we ain't missing much....besides the banshee.....
Aug 14, 2003 | 12:26 PM
#32
Pro Rider
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 521
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
SKR399, Einstein is responsible for the theory of relativity (E=mc^2), I believe you are thinking about Ben Franklin.
Anyway debating what engine configuration is better is kinda pointless, both 2 strokes and 4 strokes have their advantages. Just for the record, you 4 stroke guys who think the 2 stroke will go the way of the dinosaur need to realize millions of dollars are being invested by companies and universities for the purposes of 2 stoke R&D. Why? The light weight and high HP, this combination will save a lot of fuel. Just some facts, I’m not diss’n the 4 strokes, I like them too.
Anyway debating what engine configuration is better is kinda pointless, both 2 strokes and 4 strokes have their advantages. Just for the record, you 4 stroke guys who think the 2 stroke will go the way of the dinosaur need to realize millions of dollars are being invested by companies and universities for the purposes of 2 stoke R&D. Why? The light weight and high HP, this combination will save a lot of fuel. Just some facts, I’m not diss’n the 4 strokes, I like them too.
Aug 14, 2003 | 12:51 PM
#33
Pro Rider
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
Originally posted by: Ridley
me neither, but facts are facts just like you said about slipping the clutch or downshifting a twostroke where the 4 stroke thumps through, That costs time on a track. Thats why almost all riders are faster on a comparable 4 stroke, cause they're easier to ride fast. Who really cares about cc to cc? it's all relative, and we could argue the reliability factor as well. The price of these expensive titanium parts and what not are also relative with demand. When the technology increases the demand for them, the cost comes down. Simple as that. Two strokes have topped out, and there isn't anything else R+D is gonna help. Ports are ports, builders have already done everything there is to do with them. The max hp out of a 250cc dirtbike has been pretty constant over the last few years while the 4 strokes have increased massively. It's not because there's no R+D money for the two strokes, it's because there's just so much room for improvement on the fourstrokes. Like 85rider said, there's alot of new tech coming out right now, like rotary valves and the like. There's really no limit to the possibilities for 4 strokes, and the power to CC ratio will continue to rise if thats what really floats your boat. The 2 strokes have been a dying breed way before the EPA started knocking on the door.
me neither, but facts are facts just like you said about slipping the clutch or downshifting a twostroke where the 4 stroke thumps through, That costs time on a track. Thats why almost all riders are faster on a comparable 4 stroke, cause they're easier to ride fast. Who really cares about cc to cc? it's all relative, and we could argue the reliability factor as well. The price of these expensive titanium parts and what not are also relative with demand. When the technology increases the demand for them, the cost comes down. Simple as that. Two strokes have topped out, and there isn't anything else R+D is gonna help. Ports are ports, builders have already done everything there is to do with them. The max hp out of a 250cc dirtbike has been pretty constant over the last few years while the 4 strokes have increased massively. It's not because there's no R+D money for the two strokes, it's because there's just so much room for improvement on the fourstrokes. Like 85rider said, there's alot of new tech coming out right now, like rotary valves and the like. There's really no limit to the possibilities for 4 strokes, and the power to CC ratio will continue to rise if thats what really floats your boat. The 2 strokes have been a dying breed way before the EPA started knocking on the door.
I think TomM has a good head on his shoulders, and I tend to agree with his thoughts.
But Ridley... WTF have you been smoking?? There isn't much room for improvement on the 2-stroke motors? "topped out"?? 4strokes have more HP??? I beg to differ! There are many improvments that the mfgs COULD be making to improve efficiency, increase horsepower, and improved emissions, etc, etc. There's only so much you can do with the ports??? The combinations are infinite!
You don't think a cc to cc comparison is fair? makes no difference? Why is it that it takes a 450cc 4-stroke to compete with a 250cc 2 stroke then? Stock for stock the HP output is similar.... And we won't even discuss modifications, because you know much more HP can be developed with a 2 stroke with much less $$ invested.
You can spend $2,500+ to get around 55HP... I've spent around $500 and am nearing the 75 to 80 range (without the bottle)..
If the racing associations held the classes at 250cc like they used to, you sure wouldn't see many folks jumping on the 4stroke bandwagon...
Dude, take off your blinders! You've obviously been baffled by too much B.S.
I also see that you wanted to bring up the reliability arguement... HA! It's all about how the machine has been cared for... no matter what it is... I ran my first 500 piston 12 years before it was replaced... I see no shortfall in reliability, but I also take good care of my equipment.
Let's look at the replacement/rebuild costs b/w the two !!! All I need is a fresh bore, piston, rings, wrist pin.... Cams/chains/valves/piston, etc...... Hmmmm.
Not to mention rotating mass/inertia.... AND only 1 power stroke per complete cycle!!
Now that we're done bashing each other... each of these machines has it's place.... Just engage brain before keyboard.
I firmly believe that the 2strokes aren't dead by 2006... the snowmobile world will not let that happen (Again, power to weight ratio's are VERY important for the mountain sleds) The technology is evolving to comply with the stricter EPA standards... which is a good thing... that pushes technology forward.
I'm glad to see advances in the 4-stroke world... don't get me wrong. ANYTHING that promotes OUR sport is a good thing. They just don't fit well in my riding style... See my sig
Aug 14, 2003 | 02:45 PM
#34
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 870
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
Here’s something else to think about. If it was not for the enviro psychos trying to stop 2 stokes from being made the Warrior would likely still be king of the 4 strokes. They are not trying to improve 4 strokes because they are better, but because they know that 2 strokes may no longer be practical to produce in the near future. What do you think would happen if all the regulations were dropped and they could resume making any 2 stroke they want forever? Do you really believe that 4 strokes would be dominant based only on their performance capabilities?
Aug 14, 2003 | 03:24 PM
#36
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
Wow! That freedomAir pump sounds great. For busses...
As far as two strokes being unreliable - I think that is all in one's perception. In my perception - your wrong. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
As far as two strokes being unreliable - I think that is all in one's perception. In my perception - your wrong. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Aug 14, 2003 | 03:38 PM
#37
Pro Rider
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 521
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
That air pump can be modified for use on any desiel fourstroke and with a modified ignition you would be able to use it on any fourstroke gasoline engine.
This is in theory of course, according to the specs and how it works it should be able to be done.
This is in theory of course, according to the specs and how it works it should be able to be done.
Aug 14, 2003 | 09:57 PM
#39
Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
bye-bye 2-strokes!
Originally posted by: Ridley
If two strokes really were still better, especially for racing, I don't think there would be nearly so many people spending the big $ to build all the new custom 4 stroke quads. The new breed of fourstrokes have more HP, more torque, and are vastly easier to ride than their 2 stroke brethren. When looked at in their perspective classes(250/450) there are very few instances in which a 2 stroke will ever have the advantage anymore as is evidence by the number of amateur MX riders switching to the 4 stroke bikes. Saying the 2 stokes have not been changed over the past ten years is a very uneducated thing to say. The bikes change their designs almost yearly, and there just insn'tmuch more you can do to them. It's a simple design, with a finite numbers of changes that can be made. 4 strokes will continue to become more efficient, lighter, higher revving, etc, and to think anything else is not very intelligent. As is thinking the new breed of fourstrokes (YZF, CRF) aren't something new, because they really are.
I don’t think 4 strokes are really going to get any better. They will try to make you think so with quads like the YFZ 450 and most will fall for it, but that doesn’t make it so.
