Unfounded Rumors
Apr 7, 2005 | 07:24 PM
#131
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,261
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Unfounded Rumors
after reading through this, took me some time, i decided not to reply untill now. I belive that there are sorces out there that would like to share information, but cant due to legal factors, or competition. The Phantom might be one of those people. kind of hinting at something without saying it. I say lets here him out see what he has to say, being as stated above he does seem to be educated beyond the level of how most of the people on this forum write.(no offence). This forum has what 50,000 people visiting it. well thats a chunk, and there is no other forum as big as atv connection.(for atvs anyways) It would make sence he would come here, being it would be viewed by the most people. The phantom must be right on something, because i dont think any sane person would go through torture of saying new models and such to us withOUT factual belife that he got from someware/ someone.
The quad in his avatar i have seen before. it was speculation (photoshop) of what a Z-450 should look like. now however. i dont belive suzuki would call it the LT450r Quadracer II, due to the FACT that the R is directly tied to honda, the 450r, 250r bikes. it wouldnt be wise to asscosiate yourself(as a company) with another(you competator) I also dont think suzuki would badge it the quad racer II, due to some legal reasons, and the decline with 2 strokes, i belive they would want to not associate it with the old bikes. LT-Z450 is most likely what it will come out to be.
Lets see if the phantom is real, or a Flash of light. With the bikes in your SIG phany, i hope you are true.
Vinson581.....Is a maniac.....and shouldnt be told new quads are coming out, $$$$$$ in my head.
The quad in his avatar i have seen before. it was speculation (photoshop) of what a Z-450 should look like. now however. i dont belive suzuki would call it the LT450r Quadracer II, due to the FACT that the R is directly tied to honda, the 450r, 250r bikes. it wouldnt be wise to asscosiate yourself(as a company) with another(you competator) I also dont think suzuki would badge it the quad racer II, due to some legal reasons, and the decline with 2 strokes, i belive they would want to not associate it with the old bikes. LT-Z450 is most likely what it will come out to be.
Lets see if the phantom is real, or a Flash of light. With the bikes in your SIG phany, i hope you are true.
Vinson581.....Is a maniac.....and shouldnt be told new quads are coming out, $$$$$$ in my head.
Apr 7, 2005 | 08:11 PM
#132
Thread Starter
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The Champ
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,615
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From: San Diego
Unfounded Rumors
Thank you Mr. Vinson, for the kind words which you have bestowed upon me.
I have indeed made a spash in these forums, and after the initial shock I have been awarded with that which I was seeking from everyone....a wait and see attitude.
The facts, as I see them, there is and or has been some level of development and or research on the models listed...and more. Most have bit the dust and they are not listed. As fo those that are, I can't guarantee that they will all be built, but my feeling, using the information that I am privy to, is that the possibility of most being built is quite good.
There is definitely legal ramifications that inhibit much of what can be discussed, and for me it is less legal and more personal as there is little that the companies can do to an outsider, but they can penalize those on the inside...hence, the limitations of my exposure.
There are absolutely industry insiders here at all times being our hall monitors and they have, at times even posted things they don't want out in attempt to discredit a rumor or get someone off of the trail. They use their truth to make lies appear to be fact. Interesting tactic, I must say.
The Phantom.......wants to see Sin City......
I have indeed made a spash in these forums, and after the initial shock I have been awarded with that which I was seeking from everyone....a wait and see attitude.
The facts, as I see them, there is and or has been some level of development and or research on the models listed...and more. Most have bit the dust and they are not listed. As fo those that are, I can't guarantee that they will all be built, but my feeling, using the information that I am privy to, is that the possibility of most being built is quite good.
There is definitely legal ramifications that inhibit much of what can be discussed, and for me it is less legal and more personal as there is little that the companies can do to an outsider, but they can penalize those on the inside...hence, the limitations of my exposure.
There are absolutely industry insiders here at all times being our hall monitors and they have, at times even posted things they don't want out in attempt to discredit a rumor or get someone off of the trail. They use their truth to make lies appear to be fact. Interesting tactic, I must say.
The Phantom.......wants to see Sin City......
Apr 8, 2005 | 10:31 AM
#133
Shed Knocker Rider
Harley Punk!
Harley Punk!
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 35,876
Likes: 2
Unfounded Rumors
Phantom, I am curious about what your take or explanation of something is. Now I agree that talking about what we want will give us better chances of actually seeing it one day, and the louder we "bark" the more company "moles" might pay attention.
So that being said, why do you think a 650ex has never come out? It has a topic about it every month or so, and I have heard people talking about it since I bought my 400ex back at the end of 2000. And you know they have had different versions of that for probably years.
And you, I, and I would think "they" knows it would sell like crazy. I think it would sell other Honda models to, because I have always said, if you have a good flagship model, it will draw others to your brand even if they are after a smaller ATV just because it puts the brand on the map. I know yamaha has sold more Warriors and blasters just because Yamaha had a Raptor.
The only thing I could think of is they scrapped what they had and they are going to come out with something off the wall and totally new, like maybe aluminum frame, efi(not totally new), and maybe some other goodies.
So that being said, why do you think a 650ex has never come out? It has a topic about it every month or so, and I have heard people talking about it since I bought my 400ex back at the end of 2000. And you know they have had different versions of that for probably years.
And you, I, and I would think "they" knows it would sell like crazy. I think it would sell other Honda models to, because I have always said, if you have a good flagship model, it will draw others to your brand even if they are after a smaller ATV just because it puts the brand on the map. I know yamaha has sold more Warriors and blasters just because Yamaha had a Raptor.
The only thing I could think of is they scrapped what they had and they are going to come out with something off the wall and totally new, like maybe aluminum frame, efi(not totally new), and maybe some other goodies.
Apr 8, 2005 | 12:44 PM
#134
Thread Starter
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The Champ
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,615
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From: San Diego
Unfounded Rumors
Here's my take on the 650ex, if you look at the overall sales of the big, open class quads, they do have their niche. The Bomb, in my opinion is number 1 overall IMO, with the Raptor 1a and the KFX 700 being 3. They probably look at the direct competition and see that where the 400/450 class covers a large percentage and are eligable for the most racing event catagories, it decided to concentrate there first.
Where an open class quad fits very well is in the desert type race venues where c.c. limits are more liberal, hence you have 450's racing 650's etc. They have seen their 450 be extremely competitive there as well as the Rincon that won the Baja 1000 2 years ago and put the 650 on the back burner as they probably saw that there may not yet be enough demand for a 4th open class sport. I personally disagree and side with the concensus that a 650ex would sell very well if it is packaged right. The are however a conservative company after all and would probably want to put out somthing that would mimic more of a 400ex big brother vs. a 450 big brother...emphasis on sport.
This is a product that I feel needs to have a uprising of consistant support like the 450 received to make it a reaity.
The Phantom......is taking the rest of the day off to ride.....
Where an open class quad fits very well is in the desert type race venues where c.c. limits are more liberal, hence you have 450's racing 650's etc. They have seen their 450 be extremely competitive there as well as the Rincon that won the Baja 1000 2 years ago and put the 650 on the back burner as they probably saw that there may not yet be enough demand for a 4th open class sport. I personally disagree and side with the concensus that a 650ex would sell very well if it is packaged right. The are however a conservative company after all and would probably want to put out somthing that would mimic more of a 400ex big brother vs. a 450 big brother...emphasis on sport.
This is a product that I feel needs to have a uprising of consistant support like the 450 received to make it a reaity.
The Phantom......is taking the rest of the day off to ride.....
Apr 8, 2005 | 01:25 PM
#135
Trailblazer
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Unfounded Rumors
Originally posted by: ThePhantomRider
Here's my take on the 650ex, if you look at the overall sales of the big, open class quads, they do have their niche. The Bomb, in my opinion is number 1 overall IMO, with the Raptor 1a and the KFX 700 being 3. They probably look at the direct competition and see that where the 400/450 class covers a large percentage and are eligable for the most racing event catagories, it decided to concentrate there first.
Where an open class quad fits very well is in the desert type race venues where c.c. limits are more liberal, hence you have 450's racing 650's etc. They have seen their 450 be extremely competitive there as well as the Rincon that won the Baja 1000 2 years ago and put the 650 on the back burner as they probably saw that there may not yet be enough demand for a 4th open class sport. I personally disagree and side with the concensus that a 650ex would sell very well if it is packaged right. The are however a conservative company after all and would probably want to put out somthing that would mimic more of a 400ex big brother vs. a 450 big brother...emphasis on sport.
This is a product that I feel needs to have a uprising of consistant support like the 450 received to make it a reaity.
The Phantom......is taking the rest of the day off to ride.....
Here's my take on the 650ex, if you look at the overall sales of the big, open class quads, they do have their niche. The Bomb, in my opinion is number 1 overall IMO, with the Raptor 1a and the KFX 700 being 3. They probably look at the direct competition and see that where the 400/450 class covers a large percentage and are eligable for the most racing event catagories, it decided to concentrate there first.
Where an open class quad fits very well is in the desert type race venues where c.c. limits are more liberal, hence you have 450's racing 650's etc. They have seen their 450 be extremely competitive there as well as the Rincon that won the Baja 1000 2 years ago and put the 650 on the back burner as they probably saw that there may not yet be enough demand for a 4th open class sport. I personally disagree and side with the concensus that a 650ex would sell very well if it is packaged right. The are however a conservative company after all and would probably want to put out somthing that would mimic more of a 400ex big brother vs. a 450 big brother...emphasis on sport.
This is a product that I feel needs to have a uprising of consistant support like the 450 received to make it a reaity.
The Phantom......is taking the rest of the day off to ride.....
Apr 8, 2005 | 03:18 PM
#137
T Rex Rider
What irritates me is!
Those 6-packs work pretty good.
What irritates me is!
Those 6-packs work pretty good.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 16,801
Likes: 1
From: Oeste Del Tejas
Unfounded Rumors
Originally posted by: motox26
I understand racing is a big part of the industry, but a lot of Ratpors are sold and not to many of them race. You see 95% of those on trails, dunes, etc.
I understand racing is a big part of the industry, but a lot of Ratpors are sold and not to many of them race. You see 95% of those on trails, dunes, etc.
I'd buy it over the Raptor 660, KFX 700 or DS 650 assuming they don't stick a cvt on it! Wasn't that a let down. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
Apr 8, 2005 | 04:00 PM
#138
Thread Starter
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The Champ
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,615
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Unfounded Rumors
I am well aware of how well the 450's and modded Suzuki z-470's fare in the desert racing circles. You are right when you ask why would they build it? It all comes down to demand. Motox makes a good point in that there are a lot of Raptors sold and most don't race. RXM, as a desert racer you know that the Raptors haven't had the greatest run in desert events, rarely, if ever do you see a KFX700, typically it's the Bomb DS650 which does quite well. The dynamic is that Raptors sell well, because you have a big bore atv in a mid-size chassis. The positive is you have a rather nimble atv that's good in the trails woods and dunes. The cons are that this creates a rather tippy ride and if you were to want to utilize the full potential of the Raptor, you need to do a lot of suspension work to do so. IMO Too much motor for the chassis. The KFX appeals to a narrower audience in that it's more of a push the button and go machine that is very heavy and ok for the above applications. The DS is probably the ideal though overweight combination of motor and chassis. You can take full advantage of the DS's power with little modification, as the chassis and suspension is built to handle the big bore motor. As stated, it needs to diet still further and it's too big for to be an efficent woods machine. It is a geared a little too much towards wide open terrain. (I know, there are those who MX and woods race their DS's and KFX's)
I would venture to guess, that if what Honda has looked into is somthing between the Raptor and DS in size, with a weight close to the Raptor. Big quads need bigger chassis than the norm, my opinion, and Honda is looking to find the sweet spot between size and power.
The Phantom.....gets to test some race quads this weekend!!!!.....nothing in my sig though[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]....
I would venture to guess, that if what Honda has looked into is somthing between the Raptor and DS in size, with a weight close to the Raptor. Big quads need bigger chassis than the norm, my opinion, and Honda is looking to find the sweet spot between size and power.
The Phantom.....gets to test some race quads this weekend!!!!.....nothing in my sig though[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]....
Apr 8, 2005 | 05:00 PM
#139
Trailblazer
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
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Unfounded Rumors
The DS650 does good in Baja were its really fast. Also all the wins have come from a really fast team thats hard beat. They can ride any of the sports quads and do very well. The DS650 can not compete with the 450s in the rough. There just to big and wear the rider out. I have raced 250s, DS650 and now a YFZ450 and ATK450. I will never ride a DS650 in a Desert race again. I really dont see a need for a 650 Honda. There is already a XR650/ 400ex racing in Baja. They only race it on a fast course such as the Baja 1000. I think the 450s are just that good. Will Bomb and Suz have a 450 soon, of course they will.
Apr 8, 2005 | 06:23 PM
#140
Thread Starter
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The Champ
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: San Diego
Unfounded Rumors
Your points are very accurate RXM, and the juxt of most of some of what I speak of is the notion that if there is enough people that want somthing bad enough, they need to express it instead of being sporadic about discussing it. My opinion has been outlined several times here and my main goal is increasing the amount of discussion to hopefully bring some of what I have listed to light. I know through several information streams that there is some truth about all the models I have listed and I hopefully will help those that monitor these threads from the factories get an idea of how much people want a particular model. It's all about awarness and what I can turn up under the rocks that I look at.
How are you liking the ATK? I have ridden a Cannibal and liked it when it was running....I hear that the reliability issued have subsided since the advent of ATK.
And yes, I would bet that Bomb and Suzuki release 450 class quads before Honda releases the 650ex.
The Phantom......loves Plaster City....
How are you liking the ATK? I have ridden a Cannibal and liked it when it was running....I hear that the reliability issued have subsided since the advent of ATK.
And yes, I would bet that Bomb and Suzuki release 450 class quads before Honda releases the 650ex.
The Phantom......loves Plaster City....