Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
#21
09-12-2005 | 08:13 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Originally posted by: Duneaddict
For one, you must consider that virtually NO upgrades have ever been done to the banshee besides plastic color, and look how popular it still is 18 years later!! Just imagine how popular it COULD be if some logical progression would have been made thru the years. (Cudo's to Yammiehaw to at least have the nutz to continue to build them)
The Zillas have several reliability issues that the majority never got corrected prior to discontinuation. It's only my opinion that this is still one of the most versatile quads ever built. Awesome dune machine, hill shoots fairly well, trail rides/woods with the best of the 2X4 thumpers of today due to its big bore torque at lower rpms. Not to mention a VERY capable MX machine (Afterall, that IS what it was originally designed for XxGlamisDunerxX... I'd be willing to bet I could hang with you on a track... been there, done that.... too fat and old to care anymore)
It is difficult to build a machine that's one-size-fits-all... that's why there are several different models.
I concur with Razor on this one... Who's gunna step up and build a Big Time Bad A$$ quad like Suzuki did way back when??? I'd sure like to have one with some modern day technology!! Until that day, I'll continue riding my old Antiques, that STILL dominate the quad world.
In summary, I'm saying his logic is fairly solid, however I do not represent the mainstream quad owner by any stretch.
Originally posted by: maddog56
I find quite a bit of flaw with that one too, look at yami. Yamaha had the banshee, stock for stock its still on the heels of just about every stock atv. Modified its almost unbeatable and the aftermarket is just as big if not bigger for it than the old 250's or the new 450's. Yamaha came out with the 660 raptor which was close in power to the stock shee. Then they came out with the yfz450 which was faster than them both. Then for 06 they make the yfz and raptor faster. Yet people are still buying and riding banshees. Faster doesnt have to mean bigger, and bigger doesnt mean faster. Do you think that no one will buy the yfz now that the raptor is upgraded? Or vice versa?
The zilla is still the fastest mass produced stock atv and while they have a following its not like everyone is riding them and not buying the newer, slower 4 strokes or the same slower banshee that was availible back then. By your logic no other quad should matter since the zilla is still the fastest stock machine. One size does not fit all and the best accelleration times are not the only measure of a machine.
I find quite a bit of flaw with that one too, look at yami. Yamaha had the banshee, stock for stock its still on the heels of just about every stock atv. Modified its almost unbeatable and the aftermarket is just as big if not bigger for it than the old 250's or the new 450's. Yamaha came out with the 660 raptor which was close in power to the stock shee. Then they came out with the yfz450 which was faster than them both. Then for 06 they make the yfz and raptor faster. Yet people are still buying and riding banshees. Faster doesnt have to mean bigger, and bigger doesnt mean faster. Do you think that no one will buy the yfz now that the raptor is upgraded? Or vice versa?
The zilla is still the fastest mass produced stock atv and while they have a following its not like everyone is riding them and not buying the newer, slower 4 strokes or the same slower banshee that was availible back then. By your logic no other quad should matter since the zilla is still the fastest stock machine. One size does not fit all and the best accelleration times are not the only measure of a machine.
The Zillas have several reliability issues that the majority never got corrected prior to discontinuation. It's only my opinion that this is still one of the most versatile quads ever built. Awesome dune machine, hill shoots fairly well, trail rides/woods with the best of the 2X4 thumpers of today due to its big bore torque at lower rpms. Not to mention a VERY capable MX machine (Afterall, that IS what it was originally designed for XxGlamisDunerxX... I'd be willing to bet I could hang with you on a track... been there, done that.... too fat and old to care anymore)
It is difficult to build a machine that's one-size-fits-all... that's why there are several different models.
I concur with Razor on this one... Who's gunna step up and build a Big Time Bad A$$ quad like Suzuki did way back when??? I'd sure like to have one with some modern day technology!! Until that day, I'll continue riding my old Antiques, that STILL dominate the quad world.
In summary, I'm saying his logic is fairly solid, however I do not represent the mainstream quad owner by any stretch.
#22
09-13-2005 | 11:37 AM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Suzuki stepped up and built it, yet banshees are still king of the hill when modified. By razor's logic the zilla should be the end all beat all of the atv world and the harsh reality is that its not. The zilla wasnt the best bike for everyone, and just as you said its hard to build something that is, if not impossible. Neither is the banshee or anything else that has been built, they each have their strengths and weaknesses. If someone can manage to overcome all of the obstacles to such a machine that I listed then I'm all for it, but its not an easy road and I really dont think we'll see it in the next few years if ever.
There never has been much incentive to modify the Zuk for this reason.
We all know there is MUCHO potential in the big single cylinder. Suzuki did step up and built it, however they did detune the motor to beyond ridiculous... (I'm guessing to limit the liability of having a 12 year old with no helmet climbing aboard an 80HP machine)
Sure there's the 'puppy shop' builders that do a mediocre port job on them, but they still don't run like they should/could.
I'm not discounting the banshee at all mind you... there are efficiency benefits of a twin cylinder configuration (That's why the snowmobile world runs them).
To get back on topic: The harsh reality IMHO, my Zuk is the end all beat all which concurs with razor's logic. (At least of all quads manufactured to date) Granted, mine is modified and certainly not stock. It takes a big $$ banshee to beat me at the hill (I.E. Stroker/Alky/Etc.), but my machine is still good at woods/trail riding with a very useable powerband. (Can't take that same high $$ banshee and do that very well)...
I don't mind doing alot of preventative maintenance, re-jetting with alititude/temp/air density changes, living with some of the tempermental issues (Mainly due to design shortfalls). It's certainly not a quad for your 'average' ATV enthusiast by any stretch.
I think there would be a market for an 80HP quad (I'm talking stock HP #'s here, not modified to 80 HP) that is useable power in a lightweight chassis. (Kind of what I've build out of my Zuk)
I will certainly agree with you, I seriously doubt we'll see it in the next few years, IF EVER.
I'd drop $10K on one if someone ever had the testicular fortitude to build one.
my $.02
#23
09-13-2005 | 12:02 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
I sorry, but a quadzilla has nothing going for it except for a big engine. It is big and bulky, doesn't handle well, never was a good MXer like duneaddict seems to think. Even in the early 90's all you really seen was 250's on the track. You can only use so much power when on the track or trails, I believe what production bikes we have now put out plenty of power for trail and track operations. A well balanced machine with a descent amount of power will always outdo a power-house that is heavy and un-balanced, unless you want to go in a straight line of course.
Now if your talking dunes or drags, I can understand why you are wanting a lot more power. But if your using the bike for more than a straight line rocket, it simply isn't practical.
Now if your talking dunes or drags, I can understand why you are wanting a lot more power. But if your using the bike for more than a straight line rocket, it simply isn't practical.
#24
09-14-2005 | 01:53 AM
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#25
09-14-2005 | 03:49 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Originally posted by: motox26
I sorry, but a quadzilla has nothing going for it except for a big engine. It is big and bulky, doesn't handle well, never was a good MXer like duneaddict seems to think. Even in the early 90's all you really seen was 250's on the track. You can only use so much power when on the track or trails, I believe what production bikes we have now put out plenty of power for trail and track operations. A well balanced machine with a descent amount of power will always outdo a power-house that is heavy and un-balanced, unless you want to go in a straight line of course.
Now if your talking dunes or drags, I can understand why you are wanting a lot more power. But if your using the bike for more than a straight line rocket, it simply isn't practical.
I sorry, but a quadzilla has nothing going for it except for a big engine. It is big and bulky, doesn't handle well, never was a good MXer like duneaddict seems to think. Even in the early 90's all you really seen was 250's on the track. You can only use so much power when on the track or trails, I believe what production bikes we have now put out plenty of power for trail and track operations. A well balanced machine with a descent amount of power will always outdo a power-house that is heavy and un-balanced, unless you want to go in a straight line of course.
Now if your talking dunes or drags, I can understand why you are wanting a lot more power. But if your using the bike for more than a straight line rocket, it simply isn't practical.
Big and bulky? Heavy and unbalanced??? Never a good Mxer? Seems to me your a bit confused...
Size and weight: barely any different than the beloved banshee... look at the specs! (Barely any difference other than the LT handles much better) Ride quality is excellent... The machine flies great on large jumps.
In the early 90's all your really seen was 250's because there was no competition in the Open class, and the 500 couldn't race in the 250 class... Hmm,
Did you miss all the Dirtwheels articles, etc. boasting about the MX capabilities of this machine? I remember reading about a pro-MXer doing a test, and actually racing the bike.
Things might have been a bit different if there was some competition in that class.
I can only use 'so much' power on the track and trails??? More power often means an easier more tractible ride (Less sawing on the shifter to keep the RPMs in the power) Less rider fatigue.... Afterall, a good MX racer is 95% rider 5% bike.
I'd say this is a great example that 'one size doesn't fit all'... Your obviously happy riding a underpowered Z400 and I wouldn't be.. Plain and simple.
#26
09-14-2005 | 04:07 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Originally posted by: Duneaddict
I'd say this is a great example that 'one size doesn't fit all'... Your obviously happy riding a underpowered Z400 and I wouldn't be.. Plain and simple.
I'd say this is a great example that 'one size doesn't fit all'... Your obviously happy riding a underpowered Z400 and I wouldn't be.. Plain and simple.
And, well this really can't be done do to our locations, but Id put pink slips up that I could take my underpowered Z400 and not only beat you, but lose you on a MX track. Comparing it to Banshee specs isn't helping you any considering a Banshee is no MX machine either. And Im not going by what the magazines says.
I don't care how you put it, the thing is not a great racer, unless maybe in a straight line. I admit I havn't put to many hours on one, but enough to know what works and what doesn't. Im not trying to get in a pi$$ing match here, I think your collection is quite neat and would love to own them plus the Banshee some day just to have, but they just aren't as competitive when it comes to competition racing. Not even to a "underpowered Z400".[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
BTW, I don't need power to have a good time, I say all the time I could have fun on a golf kart as long as I got riding buddies with me.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
#27
09-15-2005 | 10:57 AM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
No PI$$ing match intended here... just trying to get my point across...
The pile of trophies in my cabinet means nothing I suppose... Even though I'm sure your quite a bit younger than I am, I would be willing to bet I could still hang quite well with you on a track, although I've done nothing but dune ride for several years now (Much easier on my old tired bones)
Not to mention I no longer even own the 500 I used for MX.
Thanks for the nice comment on my 'collection', I've owned both my 250R and 500 since new... They are pretty well pampered these days.
I'm glad you still ride a CR, so I can't pick on you too bad (Even though it's a little one)
Regards,
The pile of trophies in my cabinet means nothing I suppose... Even though I'm sure your quite a bit younger than I am, I would be willing to bet I could still hang quite well with you on a track, although I've done nothing but dune ride for several years now (Much easier on my old tired bones)
Not to mention I no longer even own the 500 I used for MX.
Thanks for the nice comment on my 'collection', I've owned both my 250R and 500 since new... They are pretty well pampered these days.
I'm glad you still ride a CR, so I can't pick on you too bad (Even though it's a little one)
Regards,
#28
09-15-2005 | 12:11 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
I didn't want to race you to see who was the better rider, what I meant was that I think with equal riders that a under powered quad that is well rounded like the Z400 would lay down faster lap times than the Zilla.
Anywho, that is pretty neat that you have owned those quads since they were new and they are still in good shape. Im more into bikes now, but one of these day I really would like to get a older 2-smoker. I think they are just more fun to play on.
If you think my CR250 is a little guy, then you won't like the idea of my next bike probably being a 250 thumper.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] (This is so I can race 2 classes, so you might let it slide[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])
Anywho, that is pretty neat that you have owned those quads since they were new and they are still in good shape. Im more into bikes now, but one of these day I really would like to get a older 2-smoker. I think they are just more fun to play on.
If you think my CR250 is a little guy, then you won't like the idea of my next bike probably being a 250 thumper.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] (This is so I can race 2 classes, so you might let it slide[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])
#29
09-15-2005 | 05:04 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Originally posted by: motox26
I think they are just more fun to play on.
If you think my CR250 is a little guy, then you won't like the idea of my next bike probably being a 250 thumper.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] (This is so I can race 2 classes, so you might let it slide[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])
I think they are just more fun to play on.
If you think my CR250 is a little guy, then you won't like the idea of my next bike probably being a 250 thumper.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] (This is so I can race 2 classes, so you might let it slide[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])
I won't pick on you too bad about the thumper thing.... If your gunna play, sometimes you have to play by the rulz of the game...
I'm just not a big fan of them... obnoxiously loud for the power they make..
#30
09-15-2005 | 05:24 PM
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Why the hype over the 450r? A 500r 2 stroke would be better
Originally posted by: Duneaddict
Hey, now we're agreeing on something!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
I won't pick on you too bad about the thumper thing.... If your gunna play, sometimes you have to play by the rulz of the game...
I'm just not a big fan of them... obnoxiously loud for the power they make..
Hey, now we're agreeing on something!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
I won't pick on you too bad about the thumper thing.... If your gunna play, sometimes you have to play by the rulz of the game...
I'm just not a big fan of them... obnoxiously loud for the power they make..
That is another thing we agree on! It is aggrivationg how loud these high tech thumpers are, and my main concern with them is maintnance. These bugers are alway needing maintnance, the 2-strokes are less maintnance and cheaper to race. I bet no one would of believed that about 10-20 years ago.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
Sellin the Z, you intere.....well, I know you don't want it. LOL [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]