I noticed the '05 has an aux. radiator for oil cooling and the '08 do's not .whats up with that ??
An oil cooler is a hellova good idea -what made Honda feel it wasn`t a nessasary feature on the newer models ?

 

good eye. 2004/2005 were identical and had oil coolers. non oil cooling started with the 2006 model when they pretty much gave the TRX the CRF450X engine. it saves weight without the oil cooler and i suppose makes things easier at production, but i think its a mistake as well. cooling the oil on a bike like this that only holds a little in the engine side will only help the overall life of the engine.
oil breakdown=engine breakdown.

surely honda knows this or they would never have designed it to have one in the first place.

i dont know why honda does some of the crap they do. they didnt design the 450R right from the start, stil havent fixed it. it will never outhandle its predecessor. for all those that want a 450 i tel them to get the YFZ. i highly suggest they correct its handling problems before 09 b/c i hear that the yfz has allot of suprises for everyone.

not to mention, in the motorcycle world, one of their bright @sses decided to close the USA plant and soon motorcycles will have to be exported from japan. hello tarriffs = more expensive bikes = less demand and decreased marketshare. they were so proud of that plant too. in 2004 they celebrated 50yrs in USA with motorcycles...4 yrs later i guess the dream is over. and too bad since the higher gas goes, the more motorcycles you will see on the road in every class, partically the middle weight division - which honda has also scaled back.

lets talk automotive - honda's acura division has lost bigtime marketshare, their main division cant make a truck that isnt ugly. i think honda stuff is quality, dont get me wrong, but they need to be alittle more aggressive and actually compete.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>An oil cooler is a hellova good idea -what made Honda feel it wasn`t a nessasary feature on the newer models ? </end quote></div>
450's are for racing. If you want to go fast you have to keep the weight down as much as possible. It's a simple forumla, the lighter you can make something, the faster you go. Honda engineers are not idiots. I'm sure they did many weeks or months of testing in different conditions.
Some engines need oil coolers, some don't. Honda engineers have determined that this engine does not need one.

 

Some engines need oil coolers, some don't. Honda engineers have determined that this engine does not need one.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;

well, what they do, screw up when they spent yrs developing the 450R to begin with and actually DESIGNED it to HAVE an oil cooler? they pretty much gave it the CRFX engine in 06 pulled off the oil cooler to save all that massive weight...and added a starter and battery that negated the weight savings. counter productive move if merely weight savings was the goal.

yes at the very heart of it racing is supposedly what the 450s are for... however honda, can-am, suzuki, yamaha, kawasaki, etc are not expecting JUST RACERS to buy the 450s... They are counting on people that want a high performance machine to buy them. sell them in masses is the way they make profits. you know that most 450s will never see a track on a regular basis. for the masses that have them, its better the have the oil cooler for engine longevity.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>you know that most 450s will never see a track on a regular basis. for the masses that have them, its better the have the oil cooler for engine longevity. </end quote></div>Sorry, I disagree. As long as you use spec oil and change it on time and keep an eye on your air cleaner it will not limit engine longevity. After all, how many 06 on up TRX 450's do you hear blowing up because of oil problems? None. This means Honda did their homework and got it correct. Things like slipper skirt piston design, rod angle and sucking dirt through a dirty air cleaner will cause far more longevity problems than missing any oil cooler ever will.

Last year we lost a race because we split a cooler open out on the track. I wish we did not have to run one but with the engine we are running it will go to right at 300 degrees oil temp real quick. Another engine we have keeps the oil temp around 210 or so; that one does not have an oil cooler on it for the reason above.

If anybody is worried about their oil and wonder how good it is, just send a sample to a lab like Blackstone and they will be glad to tell you what shape it is in.
Then you can get a base line and run it for as long as you should and not just change it to be changing it.

 

do you work for honda?? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

i never meant to imply that the oil cooler was a substitute for changing the oil or the typical maintenance that is required on 450s. if you read that outta my post then it wasnt what im getting at. what i am gettin at is that the majority wil never need the so called weight savings of the non oil cooler. and that the oil cooler will help keep the oil cooler. oil is very important to the 450s. i think you can agree about that. this whole thing is about oil, so why would you not want the cleanest oil in your machine and have it run as cool as it can without oil breakdown? if dirt is in the oil- its a given that your engine is not going to be in good shape for too long. but a big enemy of oil is also heat... i dont get it. why take up for honda's oversight? they are not perfect. make good stuff- yes. but they have missed the mark on many things. it just shows how misguided they were with the design of this bike when they had it on for 2 yrs, took it off to save weight, added a battery and starter and it weighs more that it ever did! and the SOB still doesnt handle as good as a 22yr old 250R. say what you want about that, but it's the truth. I have both.

 

Since the 450R was built to race, then it is easy to see why the oil cooler was removed. Just so you know, they make kick start bikes for a reason, in fact the 04-05's were all kick starts since it was a racing bike. People began complaining because they weren't just buying them to race, hence the 06-08 electric starts. I'm assuming they scratched the oil cooler to save some weight for the people that buy the electric start to race as well as saving weight on the kick start bike (which is what the vast majority of racers run). If you want to make the 450R handle better, slap on some +2 A-Arms and get a +2 to +4 adjustable rear axle and get a steering stabilizer and damper. The racing community is in love with 450R and it dominates on the track no matter what type of racing you do. I would say Honda nailed it with the 450R considering their target group was the racing community, not the joy-riding group.

And what makes you think the 450R's aren't capable of longevity? As long as you adjust the valves and change the oil on time, the 450R has had NO issues without the oil cooler (06-08 models). The only problem is negligence by some owners that don't do the required maintenance on the bikes (and getting dirt and sand and water in the motor). The 04-05 bikes are tough as nails, and can withstand a LOT of heat. I have a buddy who overheats his bike everytime he goes out on the track and he runs A/Semi-Pro with it. The bike flows anti-freeze out each race and has NEVER had a problem. He runs Top 3 every race he runs and the bike is still top notch. The only problems he had was the Crank issue (its 05 bike) and then after all of the racing, his rings got worn and the bike started to smoke lightly, so he replaced them and has had no problems since. Yes it was an 05 with an oil cooler, but the extreme conditions he has put it through, shows me that you don't NEED an oil cooler on the bike. He also changes the oil after every race, afterall it is worth it to keep a $15,000 investment in top shape and avoid blowing the motor up due to oil breakdown. The oil cooler weight doesn't matter to him since he weighs about 145. To me, it would help since I'm in the 200-225 range, so I need every advantage I can get. The oil cooler is not needed, and this bike isn't meant for 1 Hour trail rides at WOT, nothing can withstand that, I don't care what you do. If these bikes can handle 3 full practice sessions, 1 class practice, and 2 full race motos, I think they can handle trail riding, where you don't run the bike half as hard.

 

i never said the 450R wasnt 'capable' of longevity, and im pretty sure i said change the oil and keep it maintained... my opinion is that i really dont think the 06-08 will be as durable in the long run as the earlier models. i think you reiteratd that with the "04/05 are as tough as nails" comment. i think this opinion is based on my own experience in the industry for over 25yrs, the lower compression/ less volitility of the earlier models and im thinking the oil cooler only helps, and, HEY I HAVE AN 04 450R!!! I know they are tough, I got the first or second one at the regional dealer here. mine is over 4 yrs old. not a problem with the engine at all.... that was never my complaint with it.

i disagree with racers only using kick start b/c Doug Gust made waves and was the first to catagorically endorse electric starting in races as well as Kory Ellis.
you cant possibly tell me that by the time you stall, reach down, flip over the kick starter, kick it correctly and not slip in slipery conditions, that you are going to fire that engine faster than the e-starter will (well in the 450r's case you might)

YFZs, LTRs, KFX, can am, cannondales, ktms, all them of them have esart from the get go and i havent seen many take it off. did bill balance take it off? Gust? anyone? every 450 'racer' is equiped with estart now.
you will lose more lap time kicking than you will with the 'massive weight' of the little oil cooler. i wonder if the 450R still uses the oil cooler in the Baja 1000? if yu know tell me. i know the first few yrs they did. as they also modified the one they used in the Rincon the year they raced it in the Baja 1000.

and actually honda engineers stated that the original CRF450R engine "was not meant for atv use" which is why they changed it in the first place. they added the 28mm skirt on the piston and a 3rd ring (and oil cooler) and made it a little more maintenance friendly for that purpose. and i repeat before i get misquoted again the oil cooler is not meant to substitute maintenance but rather to help your oil stay cooler.

dont kid your self thinking you are going to get a 450R, take it to the track and win. all are modded that win.

 

I'm not saying that NOBODY uses an Electric Start bike, but many riders choose to run kick starts. Less weight = more power, so it is advantageous to run without a battery. As far asDoug Gust, he has been a Pro forever. I haven't followed Ellis since the Cannondale crap out (loved the bikes, was a beast at the time).

One reason that I (and everyone I know that has a kick start, which is the majority of racers in my area) choose the kick start is in case I stall, I'm not taking a chance on my battery dieing on me and I just prefer it, however with my high comp piston now it makes it harder to kick start once it stalls now, that much I have noticed. I've had this problem with my brothers 06 bike, and it cost me a 3rd place overall at a District race, finished 4th instead since I stalled it 3 turns from the finish and luckily I still managed a 3rd in the second moto.

I know that the oil cooler is meant for cooling the oil (hence the name), but there have been hardly any issues with people getting the oil too hot. The hotter oil gets the easier it is to breakdown, but if you aren't running the bike at optimum temperatures, it doesn't before as well either. Maybe Honda Engineers found that the bike wasn't running at optimal temperatures with the oil cooler on the bike, and decided to let the bike run a little warmer?! I don't really see where it is a big issue, because nobody has been complaining about it, and there have not been issues with bikes overheating that I'm aware of.

Just an FYI... the Honda Pro ATV Riders are running kick start bikes. (They are not factory backed since Honda doesn't offer this for ATV racing, but I thought it was interesting considering your statement about all bikes being electric start now).