Guys, my posts are not meant to be confrontational, I am just stating facts that we have so far on the Z400 and comparing them to the 400ex.

 

One thing you guys are not looking at is the fact that the z400 is liquid cooled. You could talk all these HP numbers, but in a hot summer day out on the dunes when the temp is climbing, the liquid cooling does alot to keep the bike running at it's rated HP.

A Dyno is one thing, but engines loose alot of power when they get hot and all the money in the world will not water-cool the 400ex. This is even more important when hopping up the engine with bigger, high compression pistons, hi-lift cams and bigger carbs. Air-cooled bike are limited.

Personally when I was shopping for a machine I wanted a 400ex I couldn't get myself to buy an air-cooled bike in this day and age, it's 2001, air-cooling is for dinosaurs. Even 80cc kids dirtbikes are watercooled.

By the way does anyone know the price of the Z400

 

I'm not inclined to say "It Will" spank or not spank anything, at this point...

Again, I race against Raptors, Banshees, 250Rs, 400EXs, etc usually a couple times a month. The racing I mostly do is much like a very fast extended trail ride without rest breaks. Many people run completely stock bikes. I think it is a VERY good measure of how machines perform in the real world.

Again, I don't believe that stock 400EX's and Raptors are close at all in handling at all. If that were the case, the Raptor would have a HUGE advantage since it does deliver more power than a stock 400.

Although mine is now modified, it once was stock (and raced that way) and I race with several 400 guys that run BONE STOCK rides, still the Raptors are not typically much of a threat to me or them, given there are no huge variances in rider skill. Again, if I had the choice to race a completely stock, currently available bike from Yamaha or Honda, my pick would be the 400EX. If I had to choose between the Banshee and Raptor, it would be a Banshee. Just from experience in what I've had and seen, time after time - race after race - venue after venue.

As far as Stock 400Z vs 400EX? The 400Z will likely have more peak power than a 400EX, maybe even more overall power. The stock 400EX will likely have more torque, the stock 400Z will likely be free revving. Will the difference be huge? Probably not. Will the difference be noticible? Very possibly. From what I've seen so far, the 400Z will likely have very similar handling to a 400, can't wait to see more detailed pics of this bike's chassis.

However, I personally HATE (note the capital letters) the power delivery of a CV carb. I don't care if the new ATV has close to 10HP more than a 400EX (like a Raptor), I'd still take the mechanical carb's power delivery any day.

A year from now, if I were in the market for a sport quad - 400Z, a 400EX, a Banshee, a Raptor, or a C-Dale - the choice would be really difficult between the C-Dale, the 400Z, and the 400EX.

One other BIG thing that makes the 400EX really attractive is replacement parts pricing. If racing a quad, you WILL go thru a lot of parts. This can make a BIG difference. If the new 400Z is going to be made in America, it may enjoy the same benefit which would make it a more attractive option as well.

Personally, I'll really be glad to see another quad out there on the race course. Diversity is good. I wish it were available today, I'd love to ride one... Am I planning on selling my EX? Not yet....

BTW Gary, my intent is not to be confrontational either, I love talking design and stats... Just keep in mind that the response you get back is usually directly related to the tone of your messages, which were coming off to me as a bit confrontational toward my posts.

 

Rob -

2 strokes are a totally different world and pretty well must be liquid cooled for reliable performance applications. This is why especially 80cc MX bikes must be liquid cooled - they develop huge HP per cc power and are constantly turning high RPMs.

Liquid cooling on a 4 stroke allows you to use tighter tolerances within the engine, which typically allows it to develop more power per cubic inch. Liquid cooling is generally a good idea on a 4 stroke, but not absolutely necessary like it is on a 2 stroke.

However, even with the mods I've done (cam, carb, hi comp big bore piston, exhaust, head work, etc), I've not experienced any noticible power fade on my EX, even after running several hours continuous in the dunes where you are constantly under high engine loads and WOT. Nor have I ever experienced any power fade at a 2 hour race in mid July or August.

Air cooling also has it's advantages - it's simple, lightweight, and if designed properly reliable & efficient. This is a huge advantage for instance, at a muddy race where radiators tend to get packed with mud and the bike will "overheat". I've not seen a 400EX overheat, however, I have seen Raptors, Banshees, 250Rs, etc overheat. Heck, I have a 250R that needs the cylinder and head shaved because of one overheating instance.

One precaution that should be taken with the 400EX though, is to run a good (in my opinion, synthetic) heavy grade oil, since it does run high oil tems.

I believe the new Suzuki will be priced between a 400EX and a Raptor.

 

Gabe...Ok, OK, on paper does the Z400 look better with the limited info available when comparing it to the 400ex? Still not inclined to say....well then let me put this another way....is it the same width, LOWER, more powerful with a longer wheelbase?

Like I previously stated, when discussing STOCK quads, the Raptor and 400ex are extremely close in the handling department. For one person to say that a certain one will outhandle the other IN STOCK FORM is clearly an OPINION. Rider ability is much more important in this case.



<< when was the last time you heard about a 400ex overheating >>


Last month my neighbors profesionally built 440 seized after getting a little warm drag racing a Raptor. THese modified engines do in fact run hotter. THis is first-hand knowledge. THese guys sponge this bulletproof info up and go built their 416-440 and it melts down all too often.



<< One precaution that should be taken with the 400EX though, is to run a good (in my opinion, synthetic) heavy grade oil, since it does run high oil temps >>

This simply helps &quot;cover up&quot; the problems associated with the hotter running air cooled engine. After a certain point, the air cooled 4-stroke engine WILL make less power than one that is liquid cooled.

 

Monday I stopped and a local Suzuki/Honda dealership and talked to them about the Z400. Factory rep told them it will be the same price as the 400EX. Also the engine was not detuned from the bike, same hp as bike. Pamphlet from dealer said it weighed 370lbs, put the coolant in it and it will weigh the same as the 400EX. If it weighs the same as the EX but more HP don't you guy's think it will be faster.
Once it is out for a while and tested by the consumer(buyers) that will tell you how reliable and fast they are. As far as the reliability part, don't you think that the have tested this quad. What I mean is they have been in no hurry to release it so it is possible that they have got the bugs worked out of it over a couple years. Anyway the dealer can't place his order for them until December, so it might be the first of the year when we see them out on the trails.

Something else he heard from the factory rep was a possible 250cc quad to compete with the beginners quads(off there new Ozark 250 frame and engine). Also the rep said for 2004 there will be 3 sport quads in Suzuki's lineup. A 250cc, there new Z400, and maybe a big one 500to600+cc's??

Now what we need is honda to make a all aluminum frame, 500cc liquid cooled motor, 5sp w/reverse, and weigh about 350-365lbs. Now, I think that would outrun a Raptor.
What do you guys and gals think?

 

<< Now what we need is honda to make a all aluminum frame, 500cc liquid cooled motor, 5sp w/reverse, and weigh about 350-365lbs >>


That sounds OK, but what if you take away the liquid cooling and use air cooling? Now you have an atv that ROCKS!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]

 

TRX250Rob, all the money in the world will make a 400EX liquid cooled, four stroke tech makes a kit for liquid cooling. the fastest import car in the world I think is an air cooled flat four Volkswagen that runs 6 second Quarter miles. I still think liquid cooling is ten times better. The new suzuki will blow the 400ex DOWN TOWN! when the after market gets their hands on that thing and it's bored and stroked to 500cc and is 6 inches wider and some custom axis shocks it will be insane. Doug Gust is probably racing one with 440cc or 450cc next year on a factory racing team.

 

I was not aware of a liquid-cool kit for the 400ex, it must cost a fortune!
As for the fasted car in the world being air-cooled, come on, so are airplanes and they are fast.

A drag car runs for about 2 minutes to warm up and then a 6 second race where 1/3 of them burn up before it's over. I am talking a 15 minute moto or 4 hours out on the dunes.

I personally have been witness to 2 big bore 400exs seizing during hard riding/racing, I have yet to see one raptor go down. Now there are fewer raptors but i haven't seen it yet. I live in South Florida and it gets HOT! I have a friend that got a 440 big bore about 2 months ago and sometimes when riding it back to the truck at night the pipe is glowing red, we even checked the jets and it was right on.

 

325TrailBoss-

The engine IS detuned from the bike, there is no doubting that FACT. It, for a fact runs lower compression - which also likely means it runs less aggressive cams. It also has a 36mm CV carb - the bike runs a 39mm FCR carb.

Gary-

It may very well be faster, it probably will be - by what margin? We don't yet know - it won't be huge. It won't develop the power a Raptor does, and the Raptor is not THAT much faster than an EX. It may handle better, the same, or worse than a 400EX. On paper it looks good (if you consider a 400EX good), which is more than I can say for some ATVs. Am I concerned that my EX won't be competitive? Not at all. Am I excited about the new 400Z, absolutely - but still realistic. The Suzuki will just be another choice out there. There's nothing ground breaking about this machine. It looks like a well put together package, which is just what the 400EX is. Now, had they not detuned the engine, it would be a different story.

Lower, same width, longer wheelbase - the numbers you are quoting are so close I seriously doubt you, I, or anyone else would be able to tell the diff. It will come down to geometry - in that department, from what I can see is it looks like a 400EX -- that's a good thing.

You really sound like you are trying to be argumentive, making a really big deal of very small numbers.

Last month my neighbors profesionally built 440 seized after getting a little warm drag racing a Raptor.

Sounds like their &quot;professionally built&quot; engine didn't do so good. So much for the &quot;Professionals&quot;. There's so much that goes into it - how was his jetting? How was his octane? How stupid did he get with his mods? I'd like to see his plug.

What actually happened when they tore it down and looked?

Piston melted or broken? Bad jetting and/or octane.

Seizure - improper tolerance for a forged piston's expansion.

Broken sleeve - should have gotten the non-tapered sleeve and had the cases bored.

Rod breakage - too many RPMs / too wild a cam without going to stronger parts.

My 416 (which, by the way can beat piped Raptors by quite a margin), has held up to racing and sand dunes conditions for well over a year now. Says something for tuning. Also says something for building your engine yourself, instead of letting some $5/hr shop monkey at a &quot;Professional&quot; shop do it.

This simply helps &quot;cover up&quot; the problems associated with the hotter running air cooled engine.

No, simply using the correct product for the job. Do you run vegetable oil in your Raptor? I doubt it, it's the same concept, you use the correct tool for the job. That means if you run high oil temps, which all air cooled engines do, you need oil that will stand up to it. Regular oil works fine, just needs changed too often.

After a certain point, the air cooled 4-stroke engine WILL make less power than one that is liquid cooled.

Sure it will, and I believe I acknoledged that in my last post, neither the 400EX nor the 400Z are near that point when stock.

Again, my engine has been together for almost 1.5 years now. It gets raced, it gets abused at the dunes. Zero problems. Talk all you like, but until you have some experience building and running these engines - you have little to say. I've been building and running my own liquid and air cooled motorcycle and ATV engines for over 10 years now.

Would I like liquid cooling? In some cases yes, in some - no. Overall I'd take it if given the choice. The point at which my engine is at, it doesn't &quot;need&quot; it - like I said, no power fade so far, no engine failure so far - rock solid reliable so far. Even starts easier than stock....

That sounds OK, but what if you take away the liquid cooling and use air cooling? Now you have an atv that ROCKS!!

OK, I see what I'm dealing with - Gary, I thought you were above the teenage crap that goes on here... I'm done. Don't know why I still even visit these boards, there's much better discussion elsewhere. Where'd all the rest of the &quot;old timers&quot; go? We've lost many of the sharpest people here, wonder why...

Gabe