To people who want a 450f quad, please read.
#41
03-05-2002, 03:59 PM
<< It might be the 450 engine but they would have to down size it to compete under the 441cc limit. I feel that why would they bother with the 450 if they have do so much work on it just to be competitive rather than the 650 is proven and right now a lot of riders want the big bore! Just my opinion. >>
IF they did use it (they won't) but IF they did, they wouldn't "down size" it because they couldn't care less about quad racing. The reason they won't use that engine is because it would break down so much because a lot of people wouldn't do the proper maintenance that is NECISSARY for the 450 motor. That engine requires a lot of maintenance and since a lot of people have that "ride it and forget it" attitude, the engines would fall apart, and it would kill the Honda reputation of being reliable. So when they do make a quad, it would be the 650.
#42
03-05-2002, 04:10 PM
You guys cant be so darned brand loyal. Now ill admit that i will buy manly yamaha and kawasaki because of the experiences ive had with them. But im open minded to all other company's. Just because somethings says honda on it doesnt make it good. Like he said cannondale makes this quad. But because that honda sticker is on it its just revolutionary all of a sudden. not trying to be mean but i have heard alot of bashing kawasaki, polaris, suzuki, and an obvious gushing over yamaha and honda. Just my view, not trying to start a riot.
#43
03-06-2002, 01:29 AM
#44
03-06-2002, 02:04 AM
What an excellent thread! Well done all!
I can only imagine the quads that will be built by Cannondale after they earn even a small share of the Sport and High Performance Market. With that kinda dough they will continue to innovate and excel. Keeping all kinds of americans at work and play, at something they love at the same time.
Honda is great. I own a Nighthawk and waited for their BIG announcement, the 03 Rincon,
before getting serious about the Cannibal.
Cannondale is producing the sport Quads Honda can't/won't.
NOW.
GOOD FOR EVERYBODY.
speaking of ugly, Who authorized that orange/black DS anyway? uggghhh
I can only imagine the quads that will be built by Cannondale after they earn even a small share of the Sport and High Performance Market. With that kinda dough they will continue to innovate and excel. Keeping all kinds of americans at work and play, at something they love at the same time.
Honda is great. I own a Nighthawk and waited for their BIG announcement, the 03 Rincon,
before getting serious about the Cannibal.
Cannondale is producing the sport Quads Honda can't/won't.
NOW.
GOOD FOR EVERYBODY.
speaking of ugly, Who authorized that orange/black DS anyway? uggghhh
#45
03-06-2002, 03:53 AM
There's been lot's of reference already to the Honda "R" series and its aftermarket cousins. Go look at the bigger meets and you will find that the competitve 400 ex's are almost as aftermarket as the "R"'s. In my limited experience, if you want to be competitive at even the "B" level spending $8000.00 to $12,000 is almost standard and sometimes more on either your "R" or "EX". In fact you dont even have to go to the larger meets, even local meets have a solid core of heavy mods.
Cannondale has built a quad with the assumption that anyone who owns one is going to want to try it out in competition. This is not a quad really designed to ride the trails with your buds. It has suspension which is often too stiff for pleasure riding. (and often too stiff for performance riding too but they are working on it and it's getting better every week). EG: A local pro - to remain unamed - just had his first race on a tricked out C'Dale. His standard ride was a YZF440 ex. After trying to get used to the C'Dale and having some electrical problems he went back to the YZF 440 at this meet for the second half, and came out telling everyone that he didn't want to ride the C'Dale anymore. A few days after the meet C'Dale arranged for a team to come down and work the bike over to his taste. Two days later he was all for selling the YZ, so great was the improvement on the C'Dale. Nothing was added, just adjusted. He was so discouraged before this he was ready to retire from racing.
All of this to say that here is a piece of performance machinery that within a few days and for many thousand dollars less (compared to a raced out YZF426 which is becoming a pretty standard "hot" setup in 4 stroke expert and above) can be made into a pure race machine which apparently is more appealing than a bike which has taken a years to develop in the aftermarket. How can you compare this kind of machinery to a stock 400 ex? C'Dale is playing for keeps in the high performance market, but most people - even current owners don't realize just how potent that piece of machinery really is.
The real problem is product knowledge which takes time to get out there.
By the way the C'Dale I was referring to was a modified Canibal with front and rear suspension added and plastics. Additional cost over the Canibal was about $4000.00 still less than the Moto, which raises some marketing questions for C'Dale, but that's another thread.
Cannondale has built a quad with the assumption that anyone who owns one is going to want to try it out in competition. This is not a quad really designed to ride the trails with your buds. It has suspension which is often too stiff for pleasure riding. (and often too stiff for performance riding too but they are working on it and it's getting better every week). EG: A local pro - to remain unamed - just had his first race on a tricked out C'Dale. His standard ride was a YZF440 ex. After trying to get used to the C'Dale and having some electrical problems he went back to the YZF 440 at this meet for the second half, and came out telling everyone that he didn't want to ride the C'Dale anymore. A few days after the meet C'Dale arranged for a team to come down and work the bike over to his taste. Two days later he was all for selling the YZ, so great was the improvement on the C'Dale. Nothing was added, just adjusted. He was so discouraged before this he was ready to retire from racing.
All of this to say that here is a piece of performance machinery that within a few days and for many thousand dollars less (compared to a raced out YZF426 which is becoming a pretty standard "hot" setup in 4 stroke expert and above) can be made into a pure race machine which apparently is more appealing than a bike which has taken a years to develop in the aftermarket. How can you compare this kind of machinery to a stock 400 ex? C'Dale is playing for keeps in the high performance market, but most people - even current owners don't realize just how potent that piece of machinery really is.
The real problem is product knowledge which takes time to get out there.
By the way the C'Dale I was referring to was a modified Canibal with front and rear suspension added and plastics. Additional cost over the Canibal was about $4000.00 still less than the Moto, which raises some marketing questions for C'Dale, but that's another thread.
#47
03-06-2002, 09:05 AM
<<
<< It might be the 450 engine but they would have to down size it to compete under the 441cc limit. I feel that why would they bother with the 450 if they have do so much work on it just to be competitive rather than the 650 is proven and right now a lot of riders want the big bore! Just my opinion. >>
IF they did use it (they won't) but IF they did, they wouldn't "down size" it because they couldn't care less about quad racing. The reason they won't use that engine is because it would break down so much because a lot of people wouldn't do the proper maintenance that is NECISSARY for the 450 motor. That engine requires a lot of maintenance and since a lot of people have that "ride it and forget it" attitude, the engines would fall apart, and it would kill the Honda reputation of being reliable. So when they do make a quad, it would be the 650. >>
Yodaddy, I hear what you are saying on the neglect factor, that does make sense because Honda wants to be known for reliability.
#48
03-06-2002, 12:55 PM
fourlix- HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I'm laughin at you.
Hckycoach- I don't see why everyone says the front shocks are to stiff. I have mine as tight as they can be and it feels great on the track. I had to lessen the rebound and compression on my rear shock and it feels AWESOME now. The front shocks don't feel to stiff for me at all and I only weigh about 150 or 155.
Hckycoach- I don't see why everyone says the front shocks are to stiff. I have mine as tight as they can be and it feels great on the track. I had to lessen the rebound and compression on my rear shock and it feels AWESOME now. The front shocks don't feel to stiff for me at all and I only weigh about 150 or 155.
#49
03-06-2002, 03:02 PM
Hi YODaddy
Referring to front shock stiffness. The complaints I've heard were from two guys who have Cannibals equipped with the Ohlins, not the newer shocks supplied by C'dale, as well as some others with aftermarket PEP set ups. I dont know how much the factory was involved in helping out with the PEP set ups - if at all. So complaints about the stiffness related more to the earlier Cannibals with Ohlins, and other set ups not supplied by C'dale. It may be that the recomendations from the factory to other shock suppliers were based on their own Ohlin set ups, and hence a little stiff.
Let it be said first and foremost - I do not own nor have I ever ridden a Cannondale, but I look at all quads as "machinery" to see what has been done good and bad, and listen to what others have to say. Preferably those who have been through the wars with a lot of different iron, and have little brand preference - just interest in finding out what really works for them. I have been redesigning and repairing all kinds of machinery myself for 30 years - most of it unrelated to racing equipment. I have a lot to learn about quads in general, but I do sometimes recognize good design work when I see it.
Referring to front shock stiffness. The complaints I've heard were from two guys who have Cannibals equipped with the Ohlins, not the newer shocks supplied by C'dale, as well as some others with aftermarket PEP set ups. I dont know how much the factory was involved in helping out with the PEP set ups - if at all. So complaints about the stiffness related more to the earlier Cannibals with Ohlins, and other set ups not supplied by C'dale. It may be that the recomendations from the factory to other shock suppliers were based on their own Ohlin set ups, and hence a little stiff.
Let it be said first and foremost - I do not own nor have I ever ridden a Cannondale, but I look at all quads as "machinery" to see what has been done good and bad, and listen to what others have to say. Preferably those who have been through the wars with a lot of different iron, and have little brand preference - just interest in finding out what really works for them. I have been redesigning and repairing all kinds of machinery myself for 30 years - most of it unrelated to racing equipment. I have a lot to learn about quads in general, but I do sometimes recognize good design work when I see it.
#50
03-06-2002, 03:28 PM