I like these kinds of discussions and don't personally get too worked up over it. If I had my druthers I'd have about a half dozen more rifles than I do now (for starters) but Mrs Shady tends to be quite logical and forces a pretty well justified reason for new gun cabinet additions. Hence the 270 which does everything I really need.

If I had one rifle I used purely for elk, yes it would be something with more zap, for in these mountains here you get shots at 100 yards and under, or 400 and up it seems. Steep and timbered.

The 270 is great on deer as is my new 260 Remington. The 260 is everything the 243 always wanted to be; it doesn't kick the kids too hard, doesn't make that unpleasant roar of a magnum, and kills the crap out of the deer. It took a whitetail and a muley this year, both drop-in-the-tracks kills with handsome exit holes at the hands of my 2 sons. 120 grain 2800fps handload.

One of my friends hunts elk with a 340 Weatherby. He doesn't like to track. That thing plants em hard but it's an anti-tank weapon, not exactly fun to shoot.

I had good training, my dad was All Army Rifle Team, Master Class. And I tend to not pull the trigger unless I know what's (probably) going to happen when I do. So far I've been lucky and haven't had to be a big time tracker, haven't lost an animal yet.

The elk my buddy's kid dropped a couple weeks ago at 478 yards with his 270 shooting 140 grain accubond at 3000 is just as dead as if it had a bigger hole, and will taste just as good.

Mr Tencubed does make a very wise quote: Beware the man who shoots only one rifle, for he will shoot it well.
I like that one, and like to spend much time with a rifle I can stand to shoot over and over in the off season, so I know what it does and where the boolyet goes. Used to have a 7 mag and it just wasn't fun, so I didn't shoot it, and likely never would have been that good with it.

 

Somewhat understood but an /06 based cartrige is beltless.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]

 

The '06 cartridge is an improvement over the '03 which had a few flaws. There have been many, perhaps hundreds, of good, bad, worthless and dangerous wildcats built on this basic case design.

This case has been modified in about every fashion you can imagine and a lot you can't. It has had rims added, been straightened out, tapered severely, necked up, down and shortened. Reshaping it by belting is just another modification as is center ignition or rebating the rim. To my knowledge there has never been a basic cartridge that has been used for as much experimentation and research as the venerable '06 and the cartridges it has parented.

And you are absolutely right, the '06 is beltless as manufactured.

 

I only have one thing to say about the capitalized sentence in this post. To many people think a bigger firearm means they can take less than perfect shots and the high power will make up for it and I think they need a new hobby. If you are not confident that you can place the bullet where it needs to go you have no business pulling the trigger. I know things can happen, but a bigger rifle doesn't make up for it in most cases and should never be counted on. I have seen way to many people use that mentallity only to wound and never recover an animal. I have bear hunted with two guys that were using a .338 and a .450 Marlin for black bear. Overkill ? You bet it is. The guy with the .338 had to shoot his bear twice at 20 yards and the guy with the .450 Marlin had t track his bear more than 50 yards. Guess where my little 30-06 with a 150 grain core lokt put my 250 lb field dressed bear ?? Dead right in its tracks !!! So where did the higher caliber make up for poor shot placement ?? It didn't. To many people take shots at animals they should never have taken and then blame the rifle. I'll bet you as many elk have fallen dead in there tracks with a .270 or 30-06 as have fallen to a .300 or .338. Within there respected range I would put a 30-06 up against a .300 or .338 mag any day and the result will be that the elk is just as dead.

Chinchgub I wasn't trying to imply that you personally take poor shots, but I know many people do and thats why I kind of started ranting. As was stated in your other post there are many factors that come into play besides the rifle caliber. I am a firm believer in using enough gun and at the same time I also believe some people are over gunned and take risky shots thinking the power makes up for it. The .270 is a fine cartridge when used within its range as well as the .338 is a fine cartridge. I wouldn't call a .270 a pea shooter, but it as does any cartridge has its limitations. One big thing to cosider is recoil. A .338 has brutal recoil where as a .270 has rather mild recoil in comparison. A person will tend to flinch more with the heavy recoil. With that said there is just as much or more emphasis on being able to handle and shoot the rifle well. A .338 won't do any good if the shooter flinches evertime he squeezes the tigger. The bottom line there is no one answer to what caliber or what type or grain of bullet for that matter. There is definately a minimum that should be used on some game, but from there it starts with what kind of recoil the person is willing to or can endure. Then you have to be able to shoot accurately along with the fact that every rifle will shoot different bullets differently so one needs to try many in the right catagory to find which one shoots best. Sorry to rant I just get going and I can't seem to stop. What it all boils down to is making sure whatever we hunt dies quickly and humanely because we owe that to the animal.

 

I think the whole world would agree that a well placed shot will kill almost anything yada yada yada.

I have seen, several times, a big rifle bad a deer that a smaller one probably wouldn't have. For example, we had a deer running and my cousin shot it in the gut area with the .300. This caused enough of a blood trail where we could find the deer and finish it. However, we have lost deer with what we though were gut shots with a .243. So there, a big bore rifle saved us a deer. Maybe everyone here is a marksman shooter, but the reality is it is very hard to hit a deer running and jumpin in the hogwallows.

 

I am not trying to say that sometimes the bigger caliber will not make up for poor shot placement, but is definately the exception and should never be counted on as many people do. Why would anyone want to endure the recoil of a .338 on a black bear when hunting at 30 yds or less ?? As long as it can be shot accuratley fine, but there is no need to is what I am trying to say. I have shot at running deer before and actually got them, but it is a shot that should be practiced or it is pecking and hoping. I am out there to enjoy myself and getting an animal is a great bonus and If I am going to shoot it I want to make sure I put it down as quickly as possible. I have been lucky in 27 years of rifle hunting whitetails here in Minnesota I have taken many and never lost or wounded one yet. I shouldn't have said that because now I probably will. The other thing I was trying to say is that the .270 or other smaller calibers are just as effective within their effective range as a .300 would be in its effective range as yes shot placement is somewhat more critacal on the smaller caliber even at close range. A .243 isn't going to be as effective on a large black bear quartering toward you as a .300, but I wouldn't take the shot with a .243 and would prefer not to with any caliber. Nobody has poted any wrong anweres or any one right answer because there isn't one. There are just to many choices and to many variables to. The one thing that is obvious is we all like hunting and shooting. For the record I am far from a marksman and I guarantee the majority of those in this post could probably outshoot me, but I get by. I wasn't trying to argue with everyone and wasn't even implying that anyone on here takes poor shots so I hope there are no hard feelings.

 

PRACTICE...... I live in Utah and use a 270 Remington with 150gr Remington cor-lokt rounds for Elk hunting. Just practice with the weapon you are going to use and have the patients to take the shot. If you have to plan to shoot like crap, don't hunt.

 

I noticed a couple times the phrase "within its effective range" being used to describe the killing power of the .270. I'm glad because that helps to illustrate my point.

The effective range of a .270 (150 gr @ 2900) when you balance the bullet's weight, kinetic energy, momentum, sectional density, diameter, nose configuration and impact velocity is anything inside 160 yds on elk size game (600 lbs). Outside of that range, the risk of not having enough killing power begins to increase.

The effective range of my .338 (250 gr @ 2700) is well over 400 yards on elk size game (600 lbs). (And that's not because it makes a bigger hole!)

I think we're in agreement then. You stick within your "effective range" and I'll stick within mine.

 

I had to get in.
1st, why are you in montana hunting elk if minn. has so many?
2nd, where, and better yet why are you shooting elk at YOUR effective range(400yds). Let me speak for all of us who live in the places your hunting, if your shooting 300-400 yds, your most likely shooting over our heads because we can hunt and are in range, 200yds or less.
3rd, don't you find it funny that the guys who live where the elk are, myself included(06') are .270, .06', and 7mm shooters, and the guys who "know" about the elk where we live are .300, .338. and every wildcat you can think of guys. The .338, and.300 are so loud you wake the whole forest, and scare your horse. They kick like mules, and are too big for deer. Remember, some of us still EAT what we kill so blowing holes and blood brusing are not wanted.
4th, the 30-30 and .243 really are too small, lets be honest, in a pinch they will do but so will that fat girl in the bar at last call, but would you want her to start with?
5th, please for the love of god, you eastern guys need to know, we have squirrels out here that are bigger than whitetails, so what you use for them has NO meaning to western hunters.
Shady is right, you get one gun, mine is a A-bolt, .30-06 that I got for christmas when I turned 16 some 17 years ago. I will match my horn collection to any Minnesotan with his MANLY .338, . I still have that gun because it kills, generally because I can hunt. Any elk spooked and running scarred has enough adrenaline flowing that a 3/4 truck might not do the job. However if you can hunt, and put in your preseason time, you can be within 200yds and not be chasing elk, you can be hunting elk!

 

"Effective Range"? According to which chart and whose scope sighted typewriter or word processor are we referring? There are so many variables that can enter into this as to make these two words nearly an oxy-moron. Comment was made about a 450 Marlin being a calibre bigger than needed for black bear and the '06 being preferable. The 450 Marlin is nothing more than a 45-70 being loaded to the higher pressures that the more modern firearms can handle. Well familiar with the calibre and know it is a bear stopper very usable for close in work. The '06 also falls into this class, but with the right bullet and not in as heavy brush. Same bullet would not be that effective at the longer ranges the '06 is capable of. Not picking on this poster just using an example.

Another poster talked about "blood trail" from a gut shot deer. Again, bullet placement! A big bore will drill a hole that makes a blood trail in almost all cases. Even the old, and slow, 50-70 makes for big blood trails. Rather this trail is long or short (we had to track it for 50 yards - - - I have personally followed elk shot thru the heart with an '06 farther than that) a big hole makes for a bigger leak. High velocity does not guarantee a large exit wound and blood trail.

Prior to some committee of experts deciding the calibre was too small I used a 25-35 Model 94 Winchester as a saddle rifle for years. Took deer, elk, bear, cougar, coyote and all manner of small game with this rifle. Very light recoil and moderate muzzle blast made it perfect for shooting from a horse. Moved up to the powerful 30-30 but never managed to kill anything any deader. Even going to a Model 95 Winchester in 30-40 Gvt. failed to kill them deader than dead. The big thing comes down to knowing your capabilities and those of the rifle you carry.

No rifle, and I do mean no rifle no matter the calibre will replace a bit of skill gained from practice and ability of the person behind it. If you can't be sure where the bullet is going then don't touch off the shot. I would never take a raking shot from the rear quarter thru the lungs and heart on a bear with a 25-35. This same shot can be confidently made with a 30-40. A deer in heavy brush can be meat on the table with a 45-70 and have to be a passed shot with a 270 Win. If you don't know why you need to do some more reading or ask the questions of people that have spent the time in the field and at the range.

I mentioned before about how many of the "new" ideas and calibers have been around for years in wildcat form. The cases may be slightly different in appearance but the loading density vs case capacity to bullet weight and calibre will be so close as to make the ballistics virtually identical. These cartridges have been tested in the field and many have shown excellent results. The big difference now is there are actions being made to take advantage of these new, shorter cartridges. Just how much of an advantage this is depends on how much money you are willing to spend in order to have a rifle that is a few ounces lighter and a bit shorter. As far as the external ballistics go there is very little new under the sun.

Where some real advances have been made is in the construction of the bullets themselves. Many of the new bullets have a much wider range of effective use than most of the older ones. Some of the new designs will function is a reasonable fashion over a broad range of velocities. This is where the real advantage of todays rifle lies. The new bullets, when used in many of the older calibers has brought new life to them.

Perhaps having a "new" rifle for many folks would be as simple as doing a little research on the bullets available to them now and spending all that money not spent on a new rifle on ammo to really learn to shoot rather than sighting in a keyboard.