Update From Kawi650
#1
05-29-2003, 07:50 PM
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Update From Kawi650
I haven't been on the fourm recently so heres an update on me:
Well it's a little over a month and I don't have my bike up and running yet but I'm heading to NFLD the first of July so I need it back soon.
My problems started with the 650 wouldn't start and was going thru oil.
The earlier results:
Kawi and Dealer ran the compression test and it failed same with the leakdown tests by 98% was true and was done correctly. The thing I couldn't believe is that last time I had it going I was not missing power at all and I felt this just fell on me quickly and not gradually like normal wear would....
There is no such animal of a powertune-up as regular maintance, (This is BS)...
As for "un carbon their 650" that's a waist of time because mine was not extensively carbon up from what I saw and what they are telling me.
All damages are due to normal wear and not covered by kawi extended warrenty, however Kawi is covering one piston and one set of rings at this time... I'm paying for the rest. There is only 760 hours and 15000km on it, I guess the extended warrenty is millage related and the extended warrenty is very vauge on what it accuately covers. I also was told if I was in the states and dealing with kawi USA I would be looked after very well. (On the same topic there's only a small possiblity Kawi Can might cover more a little later). I still have not heard from my local kawi rep and I left ample of messages for him.
My cylinders are not scuffed bad, and there is no scuffs on mine pistons and no evidence of foreign matter ingestion to what I'm aware of. No evidence of blue on the pistons from overheating etc. The bottom end from what we can tell is nice and tight.
Orginally I was told both cylinders had to be replaced, (or only replace the sleeves which was recommend to me) all intake valves were pounded and had to be replaced and all valves had to be seated... The valves pins or sticks what ever you call them were in great shape and show very little wear... also the cylinders could not be bore oversize and there were no oversize pistons from kawi available. The pistons themselves looked good or good as to be expected; but both need to be replaced and the rear piston the rings were seized in and would not come out that's why Kawi is covering it.
Well... the cylinders were re-measured are now in spec (go figure) maybe my dealer sent them to an other engine shop (that knew what they were doing). The valves have to be replaced and they do not need to be re-seated and yes you can bore the engine oversize and yes there are kawi oversize pistons available... I guess this is something new because none of the dealers or Kawi Canada could find it; until I told Kawi Canada I was talking to Mike Penland and he had the part numbers for me. Mike also told me I could have put the 700 upper end on my 650 and got a true 655cc but I need durability so this would not be an option for me.
As for a cause I got none except for wear and may be a little blame on my K&N filter, (which I don't feel is to blame). They mention the oil but I'm running motul techno- and my bottem end is fine and I change it regularly.
The Final Actions:
Well all the normal stuff is being replaced and I am not touching my bottom end, new valves, cylinders were cleaned up, 2 new normal size kawi pistons and rings (one that kawi is paying for) and god knows what type of hours in the shop... for a final bill but probalbly close to a $1000 (Can) by the time she's on the trail, a hell of lot better than what we were looking at earlier with replacing cylinders etc... I'm also switching to twin-air air filter because with the K&N I was told that when you clean it and spray it, it doesn't work good until it gets a little dirt back in because the small particals can get thru after you clean it and I was cleaning mine on about a every second week and I'm also tired of greasing it every time around the edges to which I found out that people can use perim-weather seal instead... Also I think if Nyroc switch I should!
People are telling me to take legal with Kawi I don't know if I'm going to go that way yet but I really feel washed on this one because of several reasons like how hard it was to get a response from Kawi to their advice on what to do to fix the problem to the the bottom end showing no wear, to Kawi is calling normal wear compared to what I think if it's normal wear then I would classified it as massive accelerated wear. I always kept my bike fully serviced and did alot of preventive maitance and I don't spend alot of time in the mud or driving all the time at highest speed racing etc. and I don't abuse mine and I only got 15000km out of it? Man if you don't maintain your bike all I can say is WATCH OUT! LOL. I honesty don't feel that this was normal wear and I feel personally the average 650 would get 20-30 thou km, and I still feel the problems with the carb, choke issues, and the overheating issues I had didn't directly cause these issues but got things started. I don't know if I start screaming Better Business Bureau would help but it sound better as the wait is longer and longer.
They hope to have me running in a week from now. That should hopefully be it for problems for a while because I've addressed all my other problems. Now when it's back up I'll keep it for a year I was going to try to beat my 24000km record but I don't see that happening but I will hit the thousand hour mark I would expect if I don't have more months of a laydown periods. and then of course the camo650 has my name on it but I just drove a new 03camo and I found the seat harder and the front end a lot stiffer and the clutch to work better than other clutches.
now you are updated!
Well it's a little over a month and I don't have my bike up and running yet but I'm heading to NFLD the first of July so I need it back soon.
My problems started with the 650 wouldn't start and was going thru oil.
The earlier results:
Kawi and Dealer ran the compression test and it failed same with the leakdown tests by 98% was true and was done correctly. The thing I couldn't believe is that last time I had it going I was not missing power at all and I felt this just fell on me quickly and not gradually like normal wear would....
There is no such animal of a powertune-up as regular maintance, (This is BS)...
As for "un carbon their 650" that's a waist of time because mine was not extensively carbon up from what I saw and what they are telling me.
All damages are due to normal wear and not covered by kawi extended warrenty, however Kawi is covering one piston and one set of rings at this time... I'm paying for the rest. There is only 760 hours and 15000km on it, I guess the extended warrenty is millage related and the extended warrenty is very vauge on what it accuately covers. I also was told if I was in the states and dealing with kawi USA I would be looked after very well. (On the same topic there's only a small possiblity Kawi Can might cover more a little later). I still have not heard from my local kawi rep and I left ample of messages for him.
My cylinders are not scuffed bad, and there is no scuffs on mine pistons and no evidence of foreign matter ingestion to what I'm aware of. No evidence of blue on the pistons from overheating etc. The bottom end from what we can tell is nice and tight.
Orginally I was told both cylinders had to be replaced, (or only replace the sleeves which was recommend to me) all intake valves were pounded and had to be replaced and all valves had to be seated... The valves pins or sticks what ever you call them were in great shape and show very little wear... also the cylinders could not be bore oversize and there were no oversize pistons from kawi available. The pistons themselves looked good or good as to be expected; but both need to be replaced and the rear piston the rings were seized in and would not come out that's why Kawi is covering it.
Well... the cylinders were re-measured are now in spec (go figure) maybe my dealer sent them to an other engine shop (that knew what they were doing). The valves have to be replaced and they do not need to be re-seated and yes you can bore the engine oversize and yes there are kawi oversize pistons available... I guess this is something new because none of the dealers or Kawi Canada could find it; until I told Kawi Canada I was talking to Mike Penland and he had the part numbers for me. Mike also told me I could have put the 700 upper end on my 650 and got a true 655cc but I need durability so this would not be an option for me.
As for a cause I got none except for wear and may be a little blame on my K&N filter, (which I don't feel is to blame). They mention the oil but I'm running motul techno- and my bottem end is fine and I change it regularly.
The Final Actions:
Well all the normal stuff is being replaced and I am not touching my bottom end, new valves, cylinders were cleaned up, 2 new normal size kawi pistons and rings (one that kawi is paying for) and god knows what type of hours in the shop... for a final bill but probalbly close to a $1000 (Can) by the time she's on the trail, a hell of lot better than what we were looking at earlier with replacing cylinders etc... I'm also switching to twin-air air filter because with the K&N I was told that when you clean it and spray it, it doesn't work good until it gets a little dirt back in because the small particals can get thru after you clean it and I was cleaning mine on about a every second week and I'm also tired of greasing it every time around the edges to which I found out that people can use perim-weather seal instead... Also I think if Nyroc switch I should!
People are telling me to take legal with Kawi I don't know if I'm going to go that way yet but I really feel washed on this one because of several reasons like how hard it was to get a response from Kawi to their advice on what to do to fix the problem to the the bottom end showing no wear, to Kawi is calling normal wear compared to what I think if it's normal wear then I would classified it as massive accelerated wear. I always kept my bike fully serviced and did alot of preventive maitance and I don't spend alot of time in the mud or driving all the time at highest speed racing etc. and I don't abuse mine and I only got 15000km out of it? Man if you don't maintain your bike all I can say is WATCH OUT! LOL. I honesty don't feel that this was normal wear and I feel personally the average 650 would get 20-30 thou km, and I still feel the problems with the carb, choke issues, and the overheating issues I had didn't directly cause these issues but got things started. I don't know if I start screaming Better Business Bureau would help but it sound better as the wait is longer and longer.
They hope to have me running in a week from now. That should hopefully be it for problems for a while because I've addressed all my other problems. Now when it's back up I'll keep it for a year I was going to try to beat my 24000km record but I don't see that happening but I will hit the thousand hour mark I would expect if I don't have more months of a laydown periods. and then of course the camo650 has my name on it but I just drove a new 03camo and I found the seat harder and the front end a lot stiffer and the clutch to work better than other clutches.
now you are updated!
#2
05-29-2003, 09:00 PM
Update From Kawi650
Jason, glad our phone conversation was of some help. I knew that the line about no oversized pistons was a load of BS.
If I were you, I'd document everything you were told and everything that's happened since the problems began. Then it may be time to talk to the BBB, or at least threaten to go to them. If the extended warranty had no time or mileage limits, they don't have a leg to stand on.
If I were you, I'd document everything you were told and everything that's happened since the problems began. Then it may be time to talk to the BBB, or at least threaten to go to them. If the extended warranty had no time or mileage limits, they don't have a leg to stand on.
#3
05-29-2003, 09:02 PM
#4
05-29-2003, 10:09 PM
Update From Kawi650
Kawi650, do you feel your dealer did all he could do for you? The reason I am asking is that I have been told by my dealer that Kawasaki Canada follows to some degree the information that the dealer gives them, like "the guy always changed his oil, was always in for servicing etc..., the bike looked good, no abuse." If they aren't covering this, then why the hell are they selling these overpriced extended warranties. I've been following your experiences and I am thinking that 1. I hope i don't run into this problem. 2. Did i waste my money on purchasing a warranty? 3. How am i gonna be treated when i make a warranty claim. Good luck, and if you know you didn't abuse your machine, then by all means take them to task.
#5
05-29-2003, 10:42 PM
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Update From Kawi650
Scott: Thanks things are looking alot better than the other night now! LOL You should have been on the phone with Mike and Kawi. Mike's a real nice guy.
Steve: I know and it seams like everyone in the province that are not even on the chat group is now aware of this. I was in Advocate on the weekend and they knew down there and at that time I wasn't talking to anyone so go figure.
Blair: I feel Freedom done quite a bit, not as much as maybe possible, but they probably met my expectations. I feel that's a problem with dealing with a new dealership however on the same token I carried the slack that I felt they couldn't or didn't feel they could addressed and didn't get to far so how who knows. I'm not blameing Freedom, they can do so much it's really up to Kawi. I can not talk on the overprice warrenty because it's all ready done a lot for me however I know that's not an excuse on that. I really feel no one else will have the problems I have because I put so many hours/km on my machine so quick, for example the average ATVer puts about 1000-2000km per year.... I'm not close to that and I feel 98% of atvers will never come up to the millage I have now. Personnally I don't feel the warrenty is a waste of money it doesn't take much to cover the price of the warrenty, however words direct from Kawi Canada (quoted) "Your warrenty is only as good as your dealer" !! Normally your dealer will deal with the claims and your claims your dealer should be experinced with because you will not be the first claim like me, that's why I have all the problems so you won't have to!
and yes I'm just waiting until Kawi say mine is abused.... because I would correct them so quick. If mine was abused it would have been dead at 4000km max mark and they know that and with my normal service bill intervals at Freedom there's enough evidence.
Steve: I know and it seams like everyone in the province that are not even on the chat group is now aware of this. I was in Advocate on the weekend and they knew down there and at that time I wasn't talking to anyone so go figure.
Blair: I feel Freedom done quite a bit, not as much as maybe possible, but they probably met my expectations. I feel that's a problem with dealing with a new dealership however on the same token I carried the slack that I felt they couldn't or didn't feel they could addressed and didn't get to far so how who knows. I'm not blameing Freedom, they can do so much it's really up to Kawi. I can not talk on the overprice warrenty because it's all ready done a lot for me however I know that's not an excuse on that. I really feel no one else will have the problems I have because I put so many hours/km on my machine so quick, for example the average ATVer puts about 1000-2000km per year.... I'm not close to that and I feel 98% of atvers will never come up to the millage I have now. Personnally I don't feel the warrenty is a waste of money it doesn't take much to cover the price of the warrenty, however words direct from Kawi Canada (quoted) "Your warrenty is only as good as your dealer" !! Normally your dealer will deal with the claims and your claims your dealer should be experinced with because you will not be the first claim like me, that's why I have all the problems so you won't have to!
and yes I'm just waiting until Kawi say mine is abused.... because I would correct them so quick. If mine was abused it would have been dead at 4000km max mark and they know that and with my normal service bill intervals at Freedom there's enough evidence.
#6
05-30-2003, 12:01 AM
Update From Kawi650
Kawi650,
It is good to hear from you about your perdicament I don't envy at all. I have had many discussions with Kawi with the end result of beating my head against the wall. At least you have had some head way likely because of your extended warranty. Although you have a few questions at least why would they look after one cylinder and not the other this seams fishy. I only know that I have put my motor under extreme pressures and it has come back smiling, apart from some basic design flaws that I will work out on my own it is a sound motor. I look forward to any more information you can get from Kawi in the near future and I hope you are up and riding soon. Take care will talk later.
It is good to hear from you about your perdicament I don't envy at all. I have had many discussions with Kawi with the end result of beating my head against the wall. At least you have had some head way likely because of your extended warranty. Although you have a few questions at least why would they look after one cylinder and not the other this seams fishy. I only know that I have put my motor under extreme pressures and it has come back smiling, apart from some basic design flaws that I will work out on my own it is a sound motor. I look forward to any more information you can get from Kawi in the near future and I hope you are up and riding soon. Take care will talk later.
#7
05-30-2003, 01:44 AM
Update From Kawi650
You would think a company would want to take care of someone who puts so many miles on there ATV. The miles show that you use it alot, which says you will buy again. Most people buy a brand and stick with them if they have good experiences with the company. If I deal with a company and they bend over bakwards to help me out they will have my business for years to come. Not to mention now days with the internet alot of people will here both good and bad.
I would also say thier willingness to pay half is just as good as an admission of guilt. They dont spend money to be nice, what they are doing is trying to appease you. I would bet if you dont drop the ball and stay with it, maybe mention the words attorney and BBB, they will cover it or at least make you alot better offer.
Hope it works out for you.
kevin
I would also say thier willingness to pay half is just as good as an admission of guilt. They dont spend money to be nice, what they are doing is trying to appease you. I would bet if you dont drop the ball and stay with it, maybe mention the words attorney and BBB, they will cover it or at least make you alot better offer.
Hope it works out for you.
kevin
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#8
05-30-2003, 08:34 AM
Update From Kawi650
Jason,
I think they are covering only one piston and rings because the rear cylinder was the one that had the rings stuck. From reading the post it seems that maybe the front piston was ok. However, it only makes sense to rebuild the total top end while you have it apart. That way you have a fresh top end when you fire it back up, hopefully good for another 20-30 k. Kawasaki relies greatly on input from the dealer. They can't see what is wrong with every unit sold in the country so each dealer is responsible for relaying info to Kawi so that they can determine if it is a warrenty item or not. When Freedom makes the warrenty claim (after the repairs) Kawi may or may not request to see the parts that were replaced. If they don't request to see anything then the total claim is granted. In situations such as yours they will probably want to see the parts. Your failure is unusual and they will want to determine if it was normal wear or if there was something else that contributed to the failure. If they determine that there was another problem they might consider an additional claim later. This is how they make improvements on future models and if there are recurring issues with several units they will consider a recall to fix the problem. It is easier for Freedom to claim what they know Kawi will cover for sure and then go back later for an additional claim. If they claim everything now and Kawasaki declines the claim then they either have to swallow the cost not covered or chase you for the difference. I do understand the route they are taking but keep up with the progress of the claim even after the repair. You might get an additional refund and that would be a bonus.
Steve
I think they are covering only one piston and rings because the rear cylinder was the one that had the rings stuck. From reading the post it seems that maybe the front piston was ok. However, it only makes sense to rebuild the total top end while you have it apart. That way you have a fresh top end when you fire it back up, hopefully good for another 20-30 k. Kawasaki relies greatly on input from the dealer. They can't see what is wrong with every unit sold in the country so each dealer is responsible for relaying info to Kawi so that they can determine if it is a warrenty item or not. When Freedom makes the warrenty claim (after the repairs) Kawi may or may not request to see the parts that were replaced. If they don't request to see anything then the total claim is granted. In situations such as yours they will probably want to see the parts. Your failure is unusual and they will want to determine if it was normal wear or if there was something else that contributed to the failure. If they determine that there was another problem they might consider an additional claim later. This is how they make improvements on future models and if there are recurring issues with several units they will consider a recall to fix the problem. It is easier for Freedom to claim what they know Kawi will cover for sure and then go back later for an additional claim. If they claim everything now and Kawasaki declines the claim then they either have to swallow the cost not covered or chase you for the difference. I do understand the route they are taking but keep up with the progress of the claim even after the repair. You might get an additional refund and that would be a bonus.
Steve
#9
05-30-2003, 08:56 AM
Update From Kawi650
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Freedom Cycle Sucks, I was going to buy a 650 and did but *did not* get it there. I got mine in Truro @ Blairs and am VERY happy with their service. Freedom Cycle tried to charge me freight & Shipping above regular expenses like a true ripoff establishment. I called a dealer in Bridgewater which were very helpful and sincere and you should try them if closer, If you call Blairs or Bridgewater I am sure you will have better service. Blairs are two brothers who have been in business forever it seems, low overhead and countrified courtesy and I did get my 650 from them. By the way, I LOVE my 650 and I mean LOVE it. No one that I have seen has anything to compare. WAY TO GO KAWASAKI !!!
One thing while I am at it. Do you know we can't get 03 camo in Canada in 650 model, could in 360. We are stuck with your(USA) old models, I couldn't get an 03 model in camo, not in New Brunswick or anywhere and I did not want an 02, getting close to 03. So Blairs came up with switching the camo plastic from the 02 to my 03 and I am a happy camper/outdoorsman/hunter/fisherman.
YEE HAA, YIPPY YI YA
The honda 50 that runs with me sounds like a mini bike compared to our 650.
I LOVE HER,
DOA, Nova Scotia Can.
One thing while I am at it. Do you know we can't get 03 camo in Canada in 650 model, could in 360. We are stuck with your(USA) old models, I couldn't get an 03 model in camo, not in New Brunswick or anywhere and I did not want an 02, getting close to 03. So Blairs came up with switching the camo plastic from the 02 to my 03 and I am a happy camper/outdoorsman/hunter/fisherman.
YEE HAA, YIPPY YI YA
The honda 50 that runs with me sounds like a mini bike compared to our 650.
I LOVE HER,
DOA, Nova Scotia Can.
#10
05-30-2003, 08:59 AM
Update From Kawi650
[quote]
Originally posted by: rivermud
I would also say thier willingness to pay half is just as good as an admission of guilt. They dont spend money to be nice, what they are doing is trying to appease you.
I dealt with Kawasaki Canada for years in the 90's as a motorcyle and watercraft dealer and I have to say that in my opinion they were more than fair with me and my customers. I was honest and upfront with every claim and they never turned me down for anything that I asked for. On several occasions, I had situations where a problem was directly related to a mistake made by a customer, not a failure on the machines part. I would explain what happened and say something like - "look quys I know this is not a problem with the machine but the customer made a mistake, told me honestly what happened and I'd like to know what I can do to help him out". In most cases they paid for some or all of the repairs and covered it under "goodwill" which to me translates to keeping me and my customer happy. I think that in Jason's case this is the situation. They realise that he has owned several quads, put on tons of mileage and will buy several more units in the future. They probably feel that they are helping out a good customer by offering some "goodwill" in the repair of his 650. However, with this being said he needs to stay on top of it to see what they determine the cause was. If it was normal wear and tear then we all need to know so that we can take the proper steps to get the most life out of our machines. If it was a problem then maybe they will help him out a little more and make improvements on future units. You don't see this problem popping up everywhere in the forums so I have to think that this is an isolated issue. Kawi650 puts on more mileage in a year than I would in 5. They should hire him for torture testing future machines and use his feedback to make improvements. Let me know if you get a job offer Jason.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Originally posted by: rivermud
I would also say thier willingness to pay half is just as good as an admission of guilt. They dont spend money to be nice, what they are doing is trying to appease you.
I dealt with Kawasaki Canada for years in the 90's as a motorcyle and watercraft dealer and I have to say that in my opinion they were more than fair with me and my customers. I was honest and upfront with every claim and they never turned me down for anything that I asked for. On several occasions, I had situations where a problem was directly related to a mistake made by a customer, not a failure on the machines part. I would explain what happened and say something like - "look quys I know this is not a problem with the machine but the customer made a mistake, told me honestly what happened and I'd like to know what I can do to help him out". In most cases they paid for some or all of the repairs and covered it under "goodwill" which to me translates to keeping me and my customer happy. I think that in Jason's case this is the situation. They realise that he has owned several quads, put on tons of mileage and will buy several more units in the future. They probably feel that they are helping out a good customer by offering some "goodwill" in the repair of his 650. However, with this being said he needs to stay on top of it to see what they determine the cause was. If it was normal wear and tear then we all need to know so that we can take the proper steps to get the most life out of our machines. If it was a problem then maybe they will help him out a little more and make improvements on future units. You don't see this problem popping up everywhere in the forums so I have to think that this is an isolated issue. Kawi650 puts on more mileage in a year than I would in 5. They should hire him for torture testing future machines and use his feedback to make improvements. Let me know if you get a job offer Jason.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]