You know what the weird thing is...I forgot to mention this..again, this is the kind of stuff(info) you absorb when you hang with the right people(dyno shop tuners)...

The Shop owner walked in when my Vforce was on the dyno. All he did was listen to the motor's tone. He did not look at the dyno. Now this guy is about 10 years older than me, and I'm pushin 40. He builds 300hp sled motors...for the sick people[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]

Quote: "Hey..is that yours?"...."You need to clutch it...it's over reving"...

I'm thinking to myself...how the hell did he know that? After the run, the graph showed the over rev condition. Thats when it clicked and I started playing with the clutch.

As for component selection, buy the package kit for your application/elevation from EPI(weights &springs). If you want to tweak because your pipe raised the peak HP point, change the weights, not the spring. Typical kit contains the pink, black and (4) 56g weights for a COMPLETELY stock Vforce/P700. VERIFY the peak HP that your pipe delivers if you add one. About every 2g's in either direction is good for 100 -150 rpm. The standard EPI package put the shift out right at 6000 on my machine. I use (2)54's and (2) 56's in my P700. It is AWESOME!

I know for a FACT, that a PROPERLY CLUTCHED stock vforce will outrun a piped and jetted Vforce. More HP to the rear wheels.
Everthing Ive told this list is a FACT and not fiction. I have No experience with Dalton. They may have a good setup, but I like the weight profile of the EPI. Looks more agressive than the Dalton. However, The Dalton weight is adjustable. There are so many variables of why use to use different weight profiles, pin position, actual mass distribution of the weight and more. This stuff, and all this really intense tweaking, should be left to the SLED RACERS. We need only worry about the basics for ATV's. Thats why these things are money pits!

 

Sorry Stan, but I can't even remotely begin to think that installing a spring with LESS shiftout is going to make the V run better. Its going to take more than one dyno run to convince me otherwise.

1)If less shiftout is the key, why do the clutch kits come with a HIGHER rated spring. Is their testing incorrect?
2)Why did EPI make the pink spring for the V-Force that increases the shiftout point?
3)Why did I go from being completely crushed by a modded Banshee when I was using the stock spring, to being right on his tail when the ONLY thing I changed was to a higher rated Polaris spring?
3)Why did I used to see dozens of posts on this forum complaining about how they were getting the holeshot in a race and then getting easily passed at the end. I rarely see that now that most people have changed to a stiffer spring.
4)Max HP on a Scrambler 500 is at 6600 RPM, I cannot believe that a 700 twin makes max HP at 6000, especially considering how a V-Twin likes to rev.

I've been saying for a while that the HPD spring is probably overreving the motor, but it builds RPM's so quickly that I still favor it in a drag race. I pull a 2 quadlength holeshot on everything I've ever raced and I've yet to be passed. Using the plain on anything but a completely open set of duals and airbox mods that jump the jetting up to the vicinity of 160 on both cylinders is probably going to hurt more than its going to help. But I can't imagine getting the kind of results against Banshees and Raptors that I've gotten using a lesser than stock spring.

 

vforce stan is right, you need to pull the RPM's back and then let it rev on top to make the V go. Dalton kits do this very nicely.
Check out this video of a 5.5 sec V in 300ft.
video
just click on download pg
Ray

 

I'm pretty sure that VforceStan is correct. I believe that the motor is over reving for a STOCK V.
Plus, I'd like to lower the shift point anyways.

Stan, What do the stock flyweights weigh?
What weight should I increase too if I wanted to lower my shiftout RPM by say 500 rpm?

Tanks,
Mike

 

The one think I avoided doing was changing springs using the stock OEM weights. You can get some benifit, but not significant. You and I chatted about this a few months ago. Dyno's don't lie. There are some differences between the dyno and real world "gravel road". That's a fact.

I tried to gather alot of info from various sources. At first, i didn't believe the Tech's at EPI. Didn't make sense to me. After getting on the dyno, it made the tuning very clear. Yes, the V motors like to rev because they can. Not because they want to. The cam's suck in these motors! The profile shows its not ment for high RPM HP. Call Web. They'll tell you this. Plus, the damn heads can't breath. Kawai engineers do this for a reason. So we don't die!

Some people install pipes and they lose HP. I can PROVE this! I lost HP with the DMC. I had more AVERAGE HP with the stock pipe no matter how I jetted or with what manufacturer's jet kit with the DMC. So, you may have to rev the crap out of the motor just to get back what you lost. Now, I talked to a few people who make pipes, and tune ATV's for actual racing....They won't openly admit this but I can read between the lines, they all removed there DMC and installed either a Yoshi or the Fat Boy. Again, not to bash a pipe, but to prove that dyno's don't lie. They may not tell all.

I am not a Pro rider, racer or a pro tuner.....just a home tweaker that almost killed himself after making his Vforce to damn quick...not fast(top end)

 

I've got to completely disagree with anyone who says the DMC's don't make more HP.
I could not believe the noticeable power increase I got when I put the pipes on. I've read
many topics on pipes on many different forums and I've yet to see anyone say that a pipe was dyno-proven to make more HP than the DMC's. The difference in power between my
brother's stock V and mine with a spring change and the DMC's is amazing. They're not even in the same league.

I still go back to why the clutch kits & pink spring were developed with higher shiftout points
if the stock spring is overreving the motor. Did the companies do no dyno testing before they started producing those springs? Of the dozens of people who have bought the pink spring, I've yet to see anyone say it made their V run worse.

I'm not much of a believer in theory, I'd rather make a change and then take it to the dirt to see if it works and every spring I've tried has worked much better than the stocker. I picked u a solid 3-4 quadlenths on top end with just the Polaris spring and nothing I read is going to
change that fact.

 

Kawi distribution was nice. They replied when I asked them the same question.

Vforce has 56g

P700 has 60g(0-2000ft)

EPI claims a slighly less weight when they did an actual weight measuremment.
Doesn't surprise me.

The problem with OEM ..profile...profile...profile...No weight at the tip to stop belt slippage.
Not enough curve in the middle and slows shiftout ( you'll notice crappy midrange power)

Again, not to start a war.....not my intention. All I can say is that my P700 is around 640 lbs.
No matter what I do when going 0 - 10mph, it will stand right up in the air with no effort. No
leaning back, or nealing or tugging the handle bars. A friend came over and rode it. He owns
a stock P650. Quote: "I would not let my wife ride this thing". Thats impressive, at least to
me, for a 4WD ATV tank. It tells me that I have some nice HP getting to the rear wheels.

 

It's important to consider the whole V setup together, rather than just the spring. If you look at the dyno charts for 2 and 4 stroke quads (5 speed), with and without pipes, you will notice that adding pipes and airbox mods shifts the power curve to the right. The peak HP moves up a few hundred RPMS.

In practical testing, I found the EPI pink with +1 spacer to be little or no help on hillshoots. However, I finally gave it a try in drag racing, and there was a definite benifit. In fact, my uncle couldn't pass me on his 450. With the stock spring, he would.

 

Yep....thats a fact about the pipes and jetting.

EPI has conducted numerious test to tune there clutch kits. They do it real world.
Timing lights, acceleration times and a trap speed with a radar gun. This finally
convinced me.

Man, I wish I had a job like that.

 

dynos don't lie [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] maybe not with a manual
unless the dyno puts the same load on the cvt as the real world
the clutching will be off
and the rpm will be too high or to low
check your shiftout in the real world then check it on the dyno see if it's the same?