OK Whodat and Raptorlegs... I hate to do this, but can you two PLEASE take this argument offline? It is distracting from the thread's stated purpose and I think some of us think this is an important enough subject to warrant a reprimand. I've tried to be nice about this.. please show the same courtesy to the rest of the people trying to provide constructive suggestions.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: kellcar
Then maybe Clark County needs to make some changes. But I'm tired of this "lets pass restrictions that affect everybody because my personal riding area is too dangerous in my opinion."

My area does not have those issues. What are you boys going to attack next as too dangerous to kids? Roller Skates, skate boards, bicycles, swimming pools, trampolines? Where do you draw the line?

 

Let me paraphrase Whodat's comments... I believe he is saying that instructing youths is only half of the equation, and that children should be accompanied by an adult when they receive the training so that BOTH are aware of the do's and don'ts, regs etc.... I can support that...

I am not going to comment on his opinions concerning the morality or legality of the decision to let a child ride in the first place. (non judgemental)

If we go with the premise of the decision is up to the parent, and IF the parent has all the pertinent information available to make a rational decision, then it is THEIR decision to make, and I believe some will argue that it is THIS POINT where they have some disagreement with other opinions that have been stated.

OK, everyone must agree to disagree.. we understand both points... so let's move back to the subject.

Is there anyone out there that is against formal training for youths? (Keep in mind the stats point to this being the number one issue that is common in all accident categories)

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
This is the part that erks me, Dragginbutt.


In 2000, there were 344 reported total # of atv related deaths and 33,100 reported injuries of children 16 years of age and younger.

According to the CDC, in 2000 there were 3,482 reported fatailties from drowning not related to boating (the majority of which they claim happened in residential swimming pools) and reported injuries of adolescents of 48,000+.

Guess we should require swimming certificates or ban swimming pools too, huh? Maybe require them to have an aviation license. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] Common people.

 

Legs, I understand your point very well. and feel the same as you do personally. I would appreciate it if you could provide the source of these figures for all to read. It is important information, and one reason we need to provide hard statistics to support anything we present to whoever... One of the things I want to be able to do is to refute the information the saftey council presents to legislators. As I have seaid before, stats can be manipulated to support any side of any arguement, unfortunately, only one side is being presented today.

I also am aware that many people like yourself probably do not support any form of legislation that would mandate training... In a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the CPSC is working hard to convince state legislators that their viewpoint is the only viewpoint, and right now, they have everyone's ear.

The most productive thing we can do right now is to refute the statistics that they present when we can prove they are innacurate, and make rational suggestions to existing laws. They are already on the books in many states, and to get them thrown out would be an impossible task. So without throwing up my hands and admitting defeat, I am trying to take the opinions and suggestions of a group of people, and try to modify the existing guidelines. I think I have a much better chance of doing that, and I think that it provides a way of saving face for everyone involved.

I'd like to be able to eliminate all the rules and legislation, but until we get those safety numbers down, we are spitting into the wind... and right now, it looks like a consolidated approach that includes training is being touted as the program that will result in the biggest gains in that regard. At least if we can see what the end result would be if training were introduced, then we could see if it works or not... either way we would hope to use this to our advantage and I think the sport will be better for it.

 

Thanks for pulling those all-but-lost pieces of my post out of the ditch - that conversation was going off the road.. But one clarification - not that parents or legal guardian needs to attend training <u>with</u> a youth - my proposal is that the parent or legal guardian would be tested and certified to supervise a youth under 16 on a ATV. Either with or without a youth in training. The youth would also need to obtain a safety certificate - but it would not be just anyone providing the training and supervision. Moms, Dads, Uncles could all become certified to supervise a youth riding a ATV. ATV club leaders and others also. People who think they can do a better job then we can would have the opportunity to have their metal tested.

An important part of statistics is to note the number of participants. There are about 297,000,000 people in the US (1). 100% are going to die.

Did you know that 9,000,000 (2) over age 15 do not know how tor read and write? Thats like one out of 3 persons in Texas.

(1) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html
(2) http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html

 

I guess what bothers me is the idea that every activity I decide to do is regulated. I now have to have machines registered, insured and the next thing will be inspection I'm sure. Now were talking about manditory testing for adults to train their kids, mandatory training for all kids and I'm sure the inevidable conclusion will be to make adults take a course as well.

I work 6 days a week. I end up riding maybe 10 times a year. My kids ride about twice that with supervision. All these trainings and regulations will do is take time from my schedule. I can see the point it just bugs the hell out of me that ignorant people (and I mean uneducated morons) are causing me grief. They screw it up for the rest of us in every way.

Examples abound. I was pulled over a few months ago and they forced me to take a breathalizer (sp) and it came up .000 of course since I dont drink, ever. I have to have insurance on my ATV because kids, and a few moronic adults, have caused damage. We go to put up a garage and we need a building permit because some people (I dont know who but this is the logic I was givin when I asked why) put up buildings that colapse under the first snow storm.

And there are so many more and yet there are people who want more regulations. People who want the drunk driving regs modified so anyone with .0001 (basically any alchohol in their system at all) will be fined severely. People who want ATV's and motorcycles banned or at least strictly regulated. There are people who think having a dog tied up outside for more than 24 hours should be a finable offense. So lets ban guns, horse back riding, ATV's, snowmobiles, jogging, walking, playing horse shoes, and sitting around the camp fire making smores without training. These are all things I've been injured doing. So I need more training I guess.

We can only have a truely safe society by everyone staying in bed.

I'm not against training. But no matter what we do kids, and adults, will get hurt. Its in our nature.

I would bet the statistics would show that the 50+ crowd are safer on their Gold Wings than the 20-30 year old crowd on their crotch rockets. Let's ban those. But I bet the 30-50 crowd on their cruisers are safer than the 70+ crowd. So take away their licenses. Manipulating stats can hurt anyone. Kids get hurt more walking in a straight line than adults so obviously they'll have more accidents on quads.

 

People like me are already being tested where it counts without certification and are obviously doing a better job than you.



Yeah, you mean kind of like 1 in 3,000,000 in Minnesota can't spell the word "opportunity"? What's your point?

 

Glimp - you have some very good points. And your not alone. I would guess the majority of people would respond citing simular issues.

I'd be curious about your riding expereince. When you ride - do you see the rule violations, safety infractions and destructive behaviors or is everyone pretty well in-line with these things? After 3 days of riding in what seems like anything-goes-land in northern MInnesota, I'd like to hear what others are seeing in different parts of the country.

As I review the posts - One thing that stands out is we seem to agree on what the problems are - its the solutions we argue about.

 

The problem is you are trying to hold ME accountable for other peoples actions!! Not have me accountable for my own! Maybe we should let natural selection take its course more! I know that is a harsh attitude but that is the way nature works.
The problem is not kids on quads adults on quads or lack of training or safety equipment, the problem is a lack of responsibility! Maybe we should start pressin manslaughter chages against the parents that allow there kids to do dumb things on there bikes. I bet that would change peoples attitudes a bit!

I am all for trainintg but all these things have one thing in common, they want to limit age to 12 and under! That is just assinine!!

Chris