moded raptor vs. moded canondale???
#1
08-11-2001, 10:26 AM
Even though I disagree with high prices charged for these machines new....
Can anybody think they can match a moded raptor as the one in Aug 01 ATV Sport magazine.
I did a quick calculation if you bought a used raptor at $5,000.00 in great condition and added about the same items minus a few that they did in that Baja raptor project in the magazine ex;($550.00 for almost 50 hp, and TCS sag control suspension which is alot better than the ohlins, lagear +3 a arms and durablue axle. You would have vary close to the same amount of money that you would have invested in a new cannondale. And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale, being that a stock cannodale already has aftermarket goodies. My point is that I doubt you could add more aftermarket goodies to the cannondale to make it much faster, but when your dealing with a big bore engine such as 660cc and the bomb 650cc the upgrades are almost endless, and there simply is alot more you can do to an engine this size without putting to much strain on the parts. Plus there is no replacement for displacement. Espially in the torque department. another way of looking at it. A $8-9,000.00 raptor vs. cannondale would be no competition. I think the raptor would kill the cannondale anyways. My two cents worth. Vary few people buy quads and keep them stock. In ATV magazine with a mear $550.00 and several dyno runs they were able to improve the raptor from 32 hp to 49hp and increase the torque everywhere on the powerband. So I still don't see the big deal about the cannondale. I would never go with Ohlins anyway over Axis, TCS, or PEP sorry!! They have not been proven yet in ATV's.
Can anybody think they can match a moded raptor as the one in Aug 01 ATV Sport magazine.
I did a quick calculation if you bought a used raptor at $5,000.00 in great condition and added about the same items minus a few that they did in that Baja raptor project in the magazine ex;($550.00 for almost 50 hp, and TCS sag control suspension which is alot better than the ohlins, lagear +3 a arms and durablue axle. You would have vary close to the same amount of money that you would have invested in a new cannondale. And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale, being that a stock cannodale already has aftermarket goodies. My point is that I doubt you could add more aftermarket goodies to the cannondale to make it much faster, but when your dealing with a big bore engine such as 660cc and the bomb 650cc the upgrades are almost endless, and there simply is alot more you can do to an engine this size without putting to much strain on the parts. Plus there is no replacement for displacement. Espially in the torque department. another way of looking at it. A $8-9,000.00 raptor vs. cannondale would be no competition. I think the raptor would kill the cannondale anyways. My two cents worth. Vary few people buy quads and keep them stock. In ATV magazine with a mear $550.00 and several dyno runs they were able to improve the raptor from 32 hp to 49hp and increase the torque everywhere on the powerband. So I still don't see the big deal about the cannondale. I would never go with Ohlins anyway over Axis, TCS, or PEP sorry!! They have not been proven yet in ATV's.
#2
08-11-2001, 07:16 PM
This is almost too funny not to respond...... In your other post you were compainling how much it cost for a new quad and couldn't see forking out $8000.00 for a new Cannondale when you could get a used Raptor with mods for $5000.00!! Now you just want to rip the Cannondale because you can mod a Raptor for roughly the same price as the Cannondale, my calculations bring the Raptor about $350.00 over the C-dale MSRP. You still don't get an alluminum frame, fuel injection, cassette tranny, and altogether lighter package. And what aftermarket goodies does the Cannondale have? Cannondale choose to build their quads with quality components, they have a pipe made by FMF but it's not an after market pipe. It has Ohlins shocks, but because no other manufacturer uses them on theirs( read; cost cutting) it makes them aftermarket? They also use steel braided brake line instead of cheaper rubber ones. The other things I listed are built into the design of the bike, the only thing that comes close to aftermarket is the wheels and tires because you can buy those exact ones aftermarket.
You also need to do a little research, Cannondale put a 500cc piston in a Cannibal and took it to some drags at the Blair-Bedford dragstrip and won the 700cc catagory, I guess those moded Raptors were "no competition" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
You have an intresting theory for why you couldn't add more to make the C-dale much faster is because you doubt it!! There are so many smaller displacment engines that produce high hp I don't know where to start. There is more to speed and hp than displacement, yeah you have torque with displacment, I have raced Raptors and their torque was negligable, the C-dale is much lighter and has power like a 2-stroke and has bottom end. Obviously you havn't ridden one either.
And there is no big deal with the, C-dale you just sound envious that other people have them but you couldn't afford it so you want to whine about price, but then you'd go out and spend more on a moded Raptor, then make agnostic comments about the C-dale.
And now you want to drag Ohlins through the mire, who's next ITP,FMF? Ohlins has proven them selves time and again, just because no one else builds their ATV's stock with Ohlins makes them unproven. Those other manufactures are great but what do they hold over Ohlins?
Just because C-dale has raised the bar on ATV's and it cost money to R&D something and they ask a bit more for thier bikes and quads is no reason to bash them. And as I've said before which other manufacturer will fix quaility issues for the customer in mid production...ZERO!
Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650
You also need to do a little research, Cannondale put a 500cc piston in a Cannibal and took it to some drags at the Blair-Bedford dragstrip and won the 700cc catagory, I guess those moded Raptors were "no competition" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
You have an intresting theory for why you couldn't add more to make the C-dale much faster is because you doubt it!! There are so many smaller displacment engines that produce high hp I don't know where to start. There is more to speed and hp than displacement, yeah you have torque with displacment, I have raced Raptors and their torque was negligable, the C-dale is much lighter and has power like a 2-stroke and has bottom end. Obviously you havn't ridden one either.
And there is no big deal with the, C-dale you just sound envious that other people have them but you couldn't afford it so you want to whine about price, but then you'd go out and spend more on a moded Raptor, then make agnostic comments about the C-dale.
And now you want to drag Ohlins through the mire, who's next ITP,FMF? Ohlins has proven them selves time and again, just because no one else builds their ATV's stock with Ohlins makes them unproven. Those other manufactures are great but what do they hold over Ohlins?
Just because C-dale has raised the bar on ATV's and it cost money to R&D something and they ask a bit more for thier bikes and quads is no reason to bash them. And as I've said before which other manufacturer will fix quaility issues for the customer in mid production...ZERO!
Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650
#3
08-12-2001, 02:29 AM
A Raptor modified like that may kill a cannondale,but it dosent bother me any because I feel like I made the best decesion on what I bought. Like I said before my $8000.00 is being financed. I could have got a Raptor,400ex,250R ect. used and got all kinds of mods for the same price. The only problem is I couldnt finance all those mods.,so thats cash money I would have to have (or a high credit limit on a credit card). Also used means no warranty. Cannondale is doing everything to make there customers happy while everyone else just makes graphics and color changes for the next years models.I do have to say Yamaha did something that I didnt think they ever would and thats updating one of there mistakes(gear change on Raptor). Any way there is alot more hidding in the C-Dale power plant than what most people think I beleive. Have you read about the new EFI for the 2002 models if not check it out on there web site. I think that along with a slip on exhaust would keep up with the moded raptor in a drag race but I may be wrong. That along with suspension revalved for the rider I think it would keep up with the modified raptor on the track. Now about the mags. I think those guys are crazy. Ive never seen a pipe, filter,airbox mod.,and jetting give a four-stroke 14.2 more hp. Im not saying its not true its just hard for me to beleive. You no what? Thinking about it thats as much hp as a slighty modified 250X! You say there is no replacement for displacement Cannondale has changed that old saying to there is no replacement for EFI and all Aluminum Frame. My 432cc C-Dale has beat every thing that Ive raced in a drag so far, and that includes Raptors,EXs,Rs,and one totaly modified (engine) Banshee. AS far as only beating an EX that has a pipe on it by a few lenghts,well I raced one last week on the strip where the track owner is making a sand drag and I would say I beat him by 6 lenghts, so dont beleive every thing you read in the mags. cctman have you rode a C-Dale yet? If not you need to, if so what do you think about it? Ohlins may not be the best but they are the best on any production quad right now. They helped the best quad racer in history win many of his 8 National Championships. I know that was a long time ago but they have proven themselves. I heard that they were working on some new shocks that will be different than any others out there.
#4
08-12-2001, 12:12 PM
Moto24 you are way off base here. CdaleRacer is a lot more understanding of my comments than you are here. First off. I look at it this way. Cannondale is charging you more money for the Ohlins shocks ITP wheels and the FMF pipe. Don't believe me just take a look at the different Cannondale models that don't have them. Now, what doesn't make sense to me is this. If I were to buy a cannondale I would rather them have an open policy where you pay the 8,000.00 and you get to pick the suspension, pipe, and wheels. Because even though I like the ITP wheels and have used them on R's in the past. I would never choose FMF over LRD/CT or some other brands. And as far as Ohlins. No way they aren't even tripple rate. And if you do the math they are charging you for them. If I were to buy shocks after market and it was my choice and the manufacture was going to add the extra cost into the ATV, I would run like I said AXIS, Ohlins, or PEP. Why do you think national champions use them? Like I said before I don't see buying a already built bike for 8,000.00 because you have already let somebody else make the decision for you to what afterarket mods are made and put on for you. And as far as your not saying that these aren't aftermarket mods... then this hurts your case even more. ecause if you don't consider these aftermarket mods then what is Cannondale charging you 8 grand for? Are you kidding? and as far as me not being able to afford a Cannondale, where did you get this info? I said I couldn't see spending that much on that particular bike and that I had friends that were in all different skill levels that feel the same way. I never said I couldn't afford one. Just that I couldn't see budgeting that much money for that high of a monthly payment for 8,000 toy. And as far as drag racing which you seem to put a lot of emphasis in .. Vary few people buy an ATV just for drag racing. I tell you what you buy your $8,000.00 Cannondale and meet me out on any track and I'll will go buy a $8,000.00 x pro 250R . I gurantee you I will dominated in every area. drag or not. Have you seen the 8-12,000.00 national pro 250R's. I could get a used national R completely gusted powder coated frame or roll design alot better and stronger than your aluminum frame. Every aftermarket part you can think of, lagear, durablue, extended travel set up for TT, baja, drag you name it for the same price you pay for a stock Cannondale. I have seen tricked out perfect condition 250r's with every trick on them for less than $8,000.00 So maybe after your humor has been redirected at yourself, you may not find it so funny anymore for jumping the gun and the poor decision you just made.
#5
08-12-2001, 03:45 PM
I havent ridden either a raptor or a cannondale as I am kinda a 2-stroke guy myself.
However, you are comparing apples to oranges when comparing the C-dale to the raptor. Which is what pisses me off. The raptor is a 660CC while the C-dale is a 432CC! You say "no replacement for displacement" in which case that C-dale shouldnt be able to touch a stock raptor, let alone a modded one! The raptor has an extra 1/3 more displacement, yet its no faster than the C-dale.
If you like a raptor so much, go buy one, if you are just sad you dont have the state of the art c-dale, then sorry man!
Also, of course they charge you a little bit for some ohlins (top quality) shocks, a STATE OF THE ART aluminum frame, EFI and cassette tranny, ITP wheels, FMF pipe, EVERYONE CHARGES FOR THAT. You dont seen yamaha putting any of that stuff on their RAPTOR for free do ya? If you want to go put an FMF pipe on a raptor, how much will it cost ya? Probably 150 bucks or more, then some TCS shocks, those are real cheap, $850 for the front and another $850 for the rear. Lets say you wanted ohlins, as thats what the C-dale has, thats about $550 for the front and more than that for the rear, for the cheaper ones! Then how bout some ITP rims and Holeshots, thats probably 300 bucks total. So what that add up to? Approx $1500-1600 bucks, and then you still dont have the great frame or tranny.
Whats a raptor NEW sell for, you cant compare a new c-dale to a used raptor? I think its something like 6995, while the C-dale is what like 7995 or something for the speed. Thats 1,000 difference, soooo for that modded raptor you would be 600 bucks more than the c-dale which will still probably run with it on a motocross track. So really, you are spending more on the raptor than the C-dale and gettin way better stuff stock on teh C-dale, in my opinon.
Just wait till next year and see how the C-dales are doing in teh GNC and GNCC circuits, and when they are dominating everything else out there, then go trade your raptor.
However, you are comparing apples to oranges when comparing the C-dale to the raptor. Which is what pisses me off. The raptor is a 660CC while the C-dale is a 432CC! You say "no replacement for displacement" in which case that C-dale shouldnt be able to touch a stock raptor, let alone a modded one! The raptor has an extra 1/3 more displacement, yet its no faster than the C-dale.
If you like a raptor so much, go buy one, if you are just sad you dont have the state of the art c-dale, then sorry man!
Also, of course they charge you a little bit for some ohlins (top quality) shocks, a STATE OF THE ART aluminum frame, EFI and cassette tranny, ITP wheels, FMF pipe, EVERYONE CHARGES FOR THAT. You dont seen yamaha putting any of that stuff on their RAPTOR for free do ya? If you want to go put an FMF pipe on a raptor, how much will it cost ya? Probably 150 bucks or more, then some TCS shocks, those are real cheap, $850 for the front and another $850 for the rear. Lets say you wanted ohlins, as thats what the C-dale has, thats about $550 for the front and more than that for the rear, for the cheaper ones! Then how bout some ITP rims and Holeshots, thats probably 300 bucks total. So what that add up to? Approx $1500-1600 bucks, and then you still dont have the great frame or tranny.
Whats a raptor NEW sell for, you cant compare a new c-dale to a used raptor? I think its something like 6995, while the C-dale is what like 7995 or something for the speed. Thats 1,000 difference, soooo for that modded raptor you would be 600 bucks more than the c-dale which will still probably run with it on a motocross track. So really, you are spending more on the raptor than the C-dale and gettin way better stuff stock on teh C-dale, in my opinon.
Just wait till next year and see how the C-dales are doing in teh GNC and GNCC circuits, and when they are dominating everything else out there, then go trade your raptor.
#6
08-12-2001, 05:28 PM
First off I never said I would buy a new raptor ... I think spending even 6,900.00 for a new atv isn't worth it. So I will wait until the unsupecting guy decides to sell his for $5,000.00. You know the one with the aftermarket pipe and durablue axle. Ya OK ! and I will still have plenty of money to run with yours. Stock for stock new for new you may have a leg to stand on... or do you? I disagree with your math first off. I can get PEP or TCS shocks a lot less expensive than you declared, and I wouldn't buy a TCS rear. I would have them revalve the stock and rebuild it, about half the money you would spend on a new one. I would also use about $550.00 to get my 49hp out of my raptor which would kill any Can. And lets say for the sake of argument that I was going to buy a stock new raptor in which I wouldn't, but anyways, where are you getting 6,900.00 for a new raptor. They are cutting deals from what I heard as low as 6,500-6,000. At least at the my local dealers in my area they are. So that leaves me with 6,500-8,000.00 1,500.00 to spend. I have a bigger bore engine putting almost 10-15 more hp than yours stock, and alot better suspension and a drop of 3 inches on the seat height. This would not include any other small items that would still keep under your 8,000.00 Can budget. So just a small response to your opinion. faster, more torque, more hp, and better suspension for less price on a new raptor for less than you paid for a 8,000.00 Cannondale.
#7
08-12-2001, 05:37 PM
Oh they're suppose to give you the shocks,wheels,tires and pipe for free? They also are charging for a more efficient engine,fuel injection, cassette tranny, steel braided brake lines, a stronger lightwieght alluminum frame, quick disconnect fuel tank, etc. You still don't get it do you? Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki all use old technology engines, you know how long the 660 engine has been around? Or the Honda 400 air cooled or the Mojave 250 engine? They all have the technology now to put new stuff in ATV's but choose not to and keep the price at a level that most people can afford. Once again, C-dale has just raised the bar, this does happen on occasion and instead of complaining or ripping on C-dale be glad that someone has taken the step to better
production ATV's or stick with the old and be happy with that.
You've jumped from comparing a used Raptor to one with mods and now, you've moved to trying to compare it with a 250R. You don't seem to be too sure what you want.
And I didn't didn't put so much emphasis on drag racing, I was just stating a fact with real results, you did say "And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale"
ok the C-dale had a 500cc piston in it but it still giving up atleast 160cc.
Like I said before C-dale choose to use higher quality components in production than the other manufactures, so they wouldn't be considered aftermarket, how does this hurt my case?
You're paying for the complete package(read; frame,fuel injection etc.) read closer and try to understand that.
Not sure what you mean by, "Don't believe me just take a look at the different Cannondale models that don't have them", as far as I can tell the newer C-dales will all have Ohlins, but they will be upgraded, the cheaper Cannibal won't but the early prodction ones have everything the FX has.
Ohlins has proven themselves many times in many diffrent championships, maybe they're not the suspension for you.
I'm sure you have technical data to back up your claim that the frame on the C-dale isn't as strong as an aftermarket design, those were designed to replace the old steel frames, not the frame on the C-dale [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Oh I know I made the right decision and I'm still laughing at how you havn't substantiated a claim you have made with your "I'm sure","I garuntee" and "I thinks". I gave you a result and you try to turn it around, lol. Also others and myself have raced Raptors and EX's and others and given their results in this forum, no speculation involved there.
Also when you do get around to getting your Raptor or 250R do you think if you have a problem you can go to the manufacter for help if you don't like something, I know I can depend on C-dale. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Enjoy your next ride whatever it may be.
Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650
production ATV's or stick with the old and be happy with that.
You've jumped from comparing a used Raptor to one with mods and now, you've moved to trying to compare it with a 250R. You don't seem to be too sure what you want.
And I didn't didn't put so much emphasis on drag racing, I was just stating a fact with real results, you did say "And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale"
ok the C-dale had a 500cc piston in it but it still giving up atleast 160cc.
Like I said before C-dale choose to use higher quality components in production than the other manufactures, so they wouldn't be considered aftermarket, how does this hurt my case?
You're paying for the complete package(read; frame,fuel injection etc.) read closer and try to understand that.
Not sure what you mean by, "Don't believe me just take a look at the different Cannondale models that don't have them", as far as I can tell the newer C-dales will all have Ohlins, but they will be upgraded, the cheaper Cannibal won't but the early prodction ones have everything the FX has.
Ohlins has proven themselves many times in many diffrent championships, maybe they're not the suspension for you.
I'm sure you have technical data to back up your claim that the frame on the C-dale isn't as strong as an aftermarket design, those were designed to replace the old steel frames, not the frame on the C-dale [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Oh I know I made the right decision and I'm still laughing at how you havn't substantiated a claim you have made with your "I'm sure","I garuntee" and "I thinks". I gave you a result and you try to turn it around, lol. Also others and myself have raced Raptors and EX's and others and given their results in this forum, no speculation involved there.
Also when you do get around to getting your Raptor or 250R do you think if you have a problem you can go to the manufacter for help if you don't like something, I know I can depend on C-dale. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Enjoy your next ride whatever it may be.
Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650
Trending Topics
#8
08-12-2001, 05:44 PM
#9
08-13-2001, 01:40 PM
I find this very commical and won't get involved other then setting the record straight regarding pricing.
The 2001 Raptor's are selling for 5895.- now, plus tax, title and prep., I paid 6200.- out the door in Sept 00. Don't quote me on this but, I believe the c-dale costs 7900.-
= $1700.- difference.
I'm done.
The 2001 Raptor's are selling for 5895.- now, plus tax, title and prep., I paid 6200.- out the door in Sept 00. Don't quote me on this but, I believe the c-dale costs 7900.-
= $1700.- difference.
I'm done.
#10
08-13-2001, 02:16 PM
You are correct on the Raptor... However on the Cdale, the Cannibal is 6995.00 plus tax....Granted that's without the high dollar shocks and alum rims/holeshots and the ultra trick exhaust. But who cares? How many of us really would appreciate (get full use of) ohlins on our trail ride? I have seen dealers sell Cdales at 500 off list to get them out there, so who knows you may find a cdale for 6900 out the door vs 6200 out the door for the raptor... If there is a problem,wouldnt you be glad you paid the extra 700 bucks and get your butt kissed by Cdale instead of ignored by Yamaha? I wont even bring up the stuff the cdale has over the raptor. You surely know it by now.