Blackballed,
on a real basic note:
1) with machines weighing in at 400-700+ lbs, and top speeds of 70 mph, why shouldn't these machines have guidelines, or at least regulations or sale?

2) The other large motorcycle orginizations are mainly concerned with street bikes, as there are lots more of them and typically they spend more $$ on machines and accessories, sad fact, but true.

3) really, what is the diffrence between a 650cc cruiser and a 650 cc quad, price wise the quad is a little more, as far as weight, the quad is about 75 lbs heavier, the big diffrence comes in that in order to get a license for the cruiser you have to demonstrate your skills to the state, or take a approved training course. Quads have no operator license, so that does not apply, unfortunately. I'd like to see a limited use license for use of a quad on dirt roads and forest roads. Yes, I'll pay a yearly fee, and take a test to do it, if not I'll be subject to fines and revocation. Any who ride my machine will be current in their skills/license, no diffrent than my street bike.. same rules should apply.

4) the cost for lisensure should be borne by the rider/manufacturer if they want to ride on public land, smart offroad parks should follow the same guidelines for legal reasons, and to unify the sport.

5) guidelines should be set by each state under a national framework, use existing guidelines first, DOT, forest service, state DNR, etc.
the guidelines should be consistient from state to state, and have input from all riders, manufactures, and orginazations. these should be ENFORCEABLE, not voulutary.

6) the current system addresses the sale of the machines only, and guidelines by manufactures as to the safe use, it is Voluntary, and based on economic gain (sale of machines)

do I feel that some type of regulation is needed, well since there are folks causing problems for the industry and sport, unfortunately yes, do I look forward to it, NO...

does legislation replace common sense, NO, do politicians think that it does, YES, I have enjoyed airboating in S. Fla, swamp buggies, dirt bike riding and racing, street bike riding, boating, fishing, and the use of the quad. now you may ask, why the diverse list...well except for swamp buggies, and airboats and quads, the rest are regulated in some way, either by permits for use or licenses. the ony diffrence is that airboats and swamp buggies are generaly made with input from the buyer, or by the buyer, they are usually not easily available to the general public. but the key thing here is that the users of these airboats/buggies police themselves, as the land used for these activites is public, generally wetland/watershed areas. they have strong associations, and leave the areas they use clean, and don't cause problems. therefore the regulation is self imposed.

would I like to see this happen to ATV's, YES, will it, Probally not.


I agree with the points you raised here

>>Nobody questions the value of having these guys point out that idiots (not machines) cause accidents ...............yet what the CPSC convened this meeting about was concerned with gathering SOLUTIONS...........and I'm sorry kids........but there are just about two paths we can go down:

#1) Either our sef-confessed "conservative" membership goes out and forces our own people to pay for training themselves.......... with a big fat fine included for non-compliance ('golly gee'.......have you ever heard anyone suggest THAT before..... or does conservatism only apply when govt. isn't FORCED to making us take care of ourselves and suggesting that we use 'our' pocketbooks to do it? )

"or"

(#2) You darn well tell the government EXACTLY what it's going to cost for these safety programs and who EXACTLY is goiong to be "left behind" each year when the number of fundable students is 'finite' (again, another subject that nobody seems willing to talk about) .<<

I' don't think that #2 will work, I mean it would be great, but lets be real, if a person wants to ride a ATV, operate a boat, either power or sail, fly a ultralight plane, ride a jet ski, parasail, ride a snow sled, should'nt the operator of the craft be responsible for his own training, or the goverment get revenue for allowing/regulating it? as far as automibles, yes there is drivers ed in high schools, but the one my daughter took only had simulators in it, not even a car..it is an elective course, just like getting a drivers license, a privelidge, not a right..

just my views..for what they are worth..

 

And isn't that the exact point that I was tring to make?...................that you can't have it 'both ways' like the hypocritical conservatives you see all over these boards who would rather talk about any kind of politics other than the kind which affect our sport?

How about the fact that these same guys have managed to CENSOR any questions regarding their "convenient conservatism" by kicking me off every board where the subject has been brought up?

Great response, Surveyor and I mean that.

I just am getting a little tired of "what people want" and nobody demanding that our national organizations stand up and 'upset' the very people needed to get it for them. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

There is absolutely NOTHING "politically correct" about safety............yet I have seen way to many non-profit organizations and clubs milking this subject and others like 'enforcement' out for all they are worth.

When is it that we say.........'enough' ?

 

well said,
I'm like you, the powers be need to realize this, and make a stand for what is right, no matter what membership, political correctness, or whether anyone's feelings get hurt, otherwise we'll have something we don't want..

with 25K atv's sold in michigan, it seems like a lot of folks arn't making their voices heard. are thare any orgizations that I would back 100% on this, well NO..this should not be a compromise issue.

I guess the folks that are discussing this really don't have the best interests of their membership in mind..or the sport..that is a shame, ultimately it will affect the manufactures

rights to enjoy a activity do not come easily, it takes a lot of pluck and cajones to fight for them, each orgazation seems to have its own agenda at heart..

I never intended a debate here, and agree with what you said, just throwing my thoughts in the ring.

but this I do know, by one's inaction, it sends a message, just as it does by one's actions.. I'd rather have action, that way at least I can say I had input in it, even though it was un popular.

 

Thanks, Surveyor..............you are 'literally' the first person on these forums to comprehend what I am trying to get across on this subject.

I have absolutely nothing against the AMA, ATVA or NOHVCC beyond what has been stated in what I believe to be a factual manner.

Yet it seems that the mere act of 'questioning' their direction will get you in the same boat as what happened to me here in Michigan.............with the ironic part being that every single item that these non-profit groups "write off" on a daily basis?.............is payed for by you and me!

Again, thanks for being one of few people who has had the intelligence to carry on a conversation and keep the topic in perspective (regardless of the subject).

I think that last sentance probably discourages me more than what's happening in the sport itself. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

First, I have to say that I do respect you and your opinions - you are very thorough, blackballed. Way more thorough than I am when I try to explain stuff sometimes. We do need riders like you who are not afraid to stand up for how it is and how it needs to be. My sincerest compliments to you, and- once again, good points. I like how you disect everything, and you have done your homework!

I do understand what you are saying; It was very intelligent. But after reading disection after disection, I cant tell where there is a substansive SOLUTION to any of the problems, but just how you expressed that you are basically p!ssed off at the ATV organizations, government and other riders in the sport at what they are NOT doing, and what they are NOT gonna do for these problems. That seems to be what it boiled down to. Time and time again questions of WHO, WHAT and where (so to speak) popped up, but no tangible solutions offered. I could have missed them, and I will be glad to apologize if I did.

Now, I ask this question again- what are you doing about it other than seemingly insulting others' intelligence and condemning every quad organization out there? How you talked with the organizations to see where they are going with their agendas? Maybe you have. If so, my apologies. But you have stated that you wish they would make their agendas public on cc limits, age, etc. IF you had talked to them then I would assume you would have this information. I know you agree that without these organizations to represent us as a whole, we are in trouble. What needs to happen is a real meeting with the leaders of the orginizations and good quad enthusiasts to see where they are going and demand changes that they represent us correctly. You know, I read somewhere where over 700,000 new atvs were sold last year. If thats true, fine. If not, fine. But even if it is 100,000/yr that is ALOT of us. So, Im sure if a flood of ATVers got up their butts, they would be a little more sensitive to our concerns.

Then fine, as ATVers let's RISE up and let's start DEMANDING for correct representation from our atv organizations or not pay them and threaten to form our own orginization and suck away their funding.
Not everyone is in the ATVA. With 700,000 + atvs yr sold, a new orginization, if promoted right, could leap right past the ATVA.

I do agree with surveyor. ATV riders should be licensed just like with other motor vehicles.
Also, I think a waiver should be signed (if not already, i cant remember) when buying an atv, and you should not get the keys to it until it is proven and demonstrated that you can handle it in a safe, responsible manner. I know- this may not solve the problem totally, but it will weed out some ignorance.

To pay for the training (not licensing)- a fee on top of the purchase price of the bike will take care of this (keep it out of the government's hands though) Training is then arranged by the dealer and manufacturer in accordance with the law giving them the right to refuse to sell the machine unless program is completed or resposible riding ability demonstrated.
And it all ties together- no training/verifiable riding ability(dealer, rider, manufacterer resposibilty)=no license(state, unfortunely)=no bike. period.
To pay for licensing (state)- this is unfortunately easy. When I go get my drivers license renewed-
I dont see the gov handing me a check to get it - I have to pay for it. Same here. You wanna ride - you pay for license to ride or you dont ride. Simple. This could ( I stress could) increase revenue for quad stuff in sates...but we all know what greedy states do when there is quad funding and there is another project or budget deficit - they unfairly raid the quad/trail fund.

That's my thoughts. We all need to get involved to do something before it's DONE to us. Thanks.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: twentycharacters....."But after reading disection after disection, I cant tell where there is a substansive SOLUTION to any of the problems, but just how you expressed that you are basically p!ssed off at the ATV organizations, government and other riders in the sport at what they are NOT doing, and what they are NOT gonna do for these problems. That seems to be what it boiled down to........"

Besides "numbering" my solutions and agreeing with people like surveyor on a lot of his own.......how would you suggest that I present them to you so that they are more understandable?

Pissed off at the atv organizations?
I am merely asking that ANY non-profit organization that the govt. allows to operate in that manner; be required to reveal EXACTLY WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN ON THE ISSUES THAT AFFECT THEIR AREA OF APPLICATION (to the govt. for non-profit status). Is that really all that much to ask? Or should folks like yourself be able to get your wife and brother-in-law together, form a non-profit that puts 'your family' in control of local atv issues and then effectively 'shut the door' to all debate on the subject that questions anything you are doing? (sorry, but I've seen this "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" crap on a first hand basis [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] ).

Pissed off at the government?
"Actually" (if you want to read a little closer) I've actually been DEFENDING the government throughout all this.................would you like to explain yourself on this and please just point out the quote where I made you feel this way?

Pissed off at atvers?
(lol)......welllllllll, ya got me there! Are 'you' finding more atvers out there than 'I' am who are willing to go into topics like this one (or the entire Land, Trails and Environment heading) and hash out the problems that are threatening to tear this sport apart?
Are you finding a lot of riders out there who are wanting to join an atv club.............let alone a club where there is a strong bond with LAW ENFORCEMENT that they proudly associate themselves with?
Need I go on?

Time and time again questions of WHO, WHAT and where (so to speak) popped up, but no tangible solutions offered......... I could have missed them, and I will be glad to apologize if I did.........."

Well, if you missed the 'solutions'..........I missed the 'questions'......... and 'who' asked them of me! Again, please just quote (copy) the 'unanswered' QUESTIONS and I'd be glad to answer them!

Well, Now, I ask this question again- what are you doing about it other than seemingly insulting others' intelligence.................

I DO insult the intelligence of those who come to these forums and:
#1) refuse to stay on topic
#2) refuse to explain themselves
#3) use their power to censor discussion that hits either too close to home or is 'contrary' to some organization that they belong to.

...."and condemning every quad organization out there?......"

First of all, their are MANY fine quad clubs out there who make an immeasurable impact on our sport........... and frankly, they have been the only saving grace which has kept this sport's head 'above water' for years. Did I somewhere state that I condemned them all? "Again"...............please find the quote, copy it and then paste it in here for me to comment on [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].
You will NEVER agree with everything any national organization or local club has to say.................yet, if they "aren't" willing to come forward and answer the questions regarding the most critical issues we face?...........what IS IT that you propose we all do to seek out and obtain a position that we can all get behind? Or would you rather that these clubs treat "atving issues" as some kind of secret mystery that only the heads of these administrations can ever 'hope' to unravel?

How(have?) you talked with the organizations to see where they are going with their agendas?

You really don't want to know how much time I've spent on the local level....... just trying to discover WHAT that agenda was! I could go on and on about our 'talks'; yet I now look at the national groups a little differently and have only recently questioned their direction (I basically sent my dues in without question before this latest CPSC debacle). I have talked to Doug Morris over the phone and find him to be an amiable gentlemen who is very helpful. Yet when I see a STINKER petition as what was just sent out for us all to sign on one of the most important issues of our time?..........can I "at the very least" question this document? Can I challenge you to find anything else that their publication has put out that is even 'slightly' political or (god forbid) "controversial"?

Bottom line.........WE HAVE CONTROVERY IN OUR SPORT AND NOBODY IS REPORTING IT!!!!.

....." But you have stated that you wish they would make their agendas public on cc limits, age, etc. IF you had talked to them then I would assume you would have this information........."

Let me tell you about a local club here who is trying to pull the same crap that you suggest.
When questions regarding what this non-profit 'family' actually stood for, started arising; they first did all they could do to discredit the questioner and make him go away. When other members started 'wising up'; they took the ability to question the administration DIRECTLY 'off' the forums and declared that talk forums were basically 'evil'. And what are we left with? In this case, a 'shell' of a club......... where the exact same people post every other day and no 'hard' questions are ever asked.......... because NO POLITICAL INFORMATION IS EVER GIVEN! (except 'maybe' at a quarterly meeting that they may or may not advertise the location of!). Now, the administration simply sits back and literally 'laughs' at its own members who can't take their ideas any further than where they refuse to help them go!!! Who wants 'peon' members getting in the way of a non-elected administration and an agenda that is much more manageable when kept within 'the family'?

My point is that we are not talking about the fate of the free world here. There is absolutely NOTHING that shouldn't be public knowledge about ANY of these non-profit organizations. They should be FALLING ALL OVER THEMSELVES to publish these beliefs and their interactions with these government officials!!!! Why? Because #1) WE PAY THESE PEOPLE; with their very existence being centered around not only the freedom of information act but all the 'perks' they receive when conducting 'business' in our name and #2) What better way to get people solidly behind you 'is there'........... than to make potentyial members realize that your organization will ONLY serve members who won't COMPROMISE one bit on cornerstone issues such as safety?
How hard is it to say your 'for' things like helmets and 'against' things like two-upping............yet be deathly afraid of telling your members that you are working HARD to change the rules at one of the largest riding areas in our country (Windrock; which practices 'both') for the sake of the example it sets for our youth? Can you have your cake and eat it too?

...... Then fine, as ATVers let's RISE up and let's start DEMANDING for correct representation from our atv organizations or not pay them and threaten to form our own orginization and suck away their funding.......


I'm going to have to stop here for times sake. But you are definitely the FIRST person I have ever heard suggest such a thing and would like to comment on it further as there are a few points I've never adressed that are connected with your statement.

Thanks for questioning me and penning another great response. I hope people can appreciate how much effort goes in to answering questions 'line-by-line'.............yet it seems this is the only way to maintain some kind of integrity when you witness so many others who 'pick and choose' or flat out ignore anything 'pointed'.

I'll be back and 'again'; sincerely appreciate your willingness to come forward and challenge me. I hope I've answered the questions you've asked to your satisfaction.

Regards,

John

 

From twentycharacters:

..."Then fine, as ATVers let's RISE up and let's start DEMANDING for correct representation from our atv organizations or not pay them and threaten to form our own orginization and suck away their funding.
Not everyone is in the ATVA. With 700,000 + atvs yr sold, a new orginization, if promoted right, could leap right past the ATVA...."

Let's look at this a little more closely.

Do we really want another atv organization......... or find out 'first' what the one we have is all about?

Can we ask them these questions?

#1) Why can't we inform the CPSC that EVERY atver is in agreement with the exact same ideals that are listed on a national organization's website and not leave the majority of them OUT of our petition? Do we really give a crap if some folks don't like to wear HELMETS?

#2) When we get past this RIDICULOUS cat and mouse game on 'safety', (of all subjects)..........where do these national groups stand on motorcycle v.s. atv trail formation and 'cooperation'?

You've got one national MOTORCYCLE organization and another 'coordinating' organization where I have heard the following comments over the telephone from 'very active' members of both ................

"Well.........you know we'll always need SEPERATE trails for motorcycles.........we just don't 'like' the atv trails..."

and

"If it was up to 'us'.....these trails wouldn't be maintained any wider than the width of our handlebars!..."

Here we are trying to fight for what limited land there will be to build orv trails for EVERYBODY.............and we have a potential conflict that nobody seems willing to talk about!

Does anybody think FOR A MINUTE that a decades old motorcycle group is going to ask its senior membership to not only convert cycle trails to widened widths..........but use as its reasoning that there is a finite number of miles availiable and that MOTORCYCLES JUST AREN'T SELLING LIKE THEY USED TO?

How about DEMANDING that their longtime members work WITH the atvers and vice-versa? Has anybody ever seen this idea put forth beyond language approaching "gee, you know we all 'should' hold hands and work together!" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] ("and then the sun shone and the birds started to chirp"...............).

Some of these long time motorcycle members are just WAITING for the day they are told that they 'will' share ALL trails with the atvers.................and that is the last membership check they will ever write.
Similiarly, these national organizations have done a good job of keeping this 'work together' issue from progressing to the point where somebody asks: "Gee, with off-road motorcycle sales in the toilet and a LIMITED amount of trails availiable...........when are we going to start working TOGETHER with the motorcyclists and start widening them for the good of BOTH sports?..."

And what will be the first words out of the national organization's mouths?

"Why, why,why.....you are being divisive!...........there are PLENTY of trails for everybody and we don't necessarily 'need' you cycle and atv folks to be getting together right now!.......why yes, we ask you both for money..........but we haven't necessarily figured out a way to break it to the cycle people that WE DON'T CARE if you like certain trails all to yourselves!...."

Can a national organization play 'both' sides of the fence on this?

Somebody show me where there are enough trails in this country for motorcycles and atvs to both have separate trails going in different directions.........meanwhile, who is out there talking about building them "side-by-side"?.....................or is that 'still' not acceptable to some motorcycle guys who have been regular 'dues payers' all along?

When the Amish built 'roads' around the Midwest farm country for their horses and carriages.................did the U.S. govternment build 'new' roads for cars and trucks or force the Amish to use the same roads that the 'new' technology needed to make this economy go forward?

Use that analogy on an 'old' motorcyclist and then tell me that we aren't being kept 'separate' from the motorcyclists for a reason that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with advancing the sport of atving. This crap is so blatant up here in Michigan that I've told by a trail coordinator that my suggestion to WORK together would be kept at the 'social level' ONLY................[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Do we need our own group which embraces motorcyclists who care more about being with their atving buddies than being with "old-time" guys/gals who would rather fight for trails that keep they and their friends apart?

I don't know about you folks, but I SEE NO EFFORT to integrate these two groups (on a national level) for the simple sake of "power in numbers"............................can somebody please explain this better than I have (admittedly) 'guessed at' above?

Do we need another club?

Don't we already have one who has gotten most of us under one 'roof'..........yet hasn't introduced us all to the obstacles we just may face in making us stronger?

It's no different than 'safety' folks....................you have some folks who will never wear a helmet or kick their kid or wife off the back rack...............should we treat a motorcyclist any different that refuses to build a multi-use trail or work together with an atver?

Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is right and not worry about who you tick off when doing it (and somehow I think our grandchildren would thank us for doing so). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Need another club?

Yah,lets get 10 more ORV clubs that are family run and kick out anyone who dares ask the ''wrong''questions or disagree with THEIR perception of WHATS RIGHT..

Some guys like me are fed up with these types of organizations.I finally realized that some of our so called leaders are nothing more than Politicians with no real answers to your questions.Everything Blackballed said about our club is true.Its not a matter of me paying dues,its a matter that this club has NO REAL agenda or direction now or for the future,and as a result,cannot give anyone a real constructive answer to alot of questions.I finally asked myself how im any better off today than I was 3 yrs ago as an ATVer?I Couldnt think of much except a FEW better trails and a LITTLE better training[which I had something to do with]I started asking more questions and making more comments directed towards leadership and got canned from the clubs President for being ANTI ?????

Leadership at its best!Why,lets get 10 more just like this one[lol]

 

Yes, thank you, this is warmer of what I am looking for! Things are getting a little clearer now. I didnt mean any provocation. My apology, as promised, on you speaking with the ATV club/organization people. I didnt see a post about it before. I dont have enough time tonight to go over everything line by line of issues, but let's go over a couple things:

(pardon me, the quote thing and bold thing is not working right for me)

Quote from balckballed:
What should be done about it is simple.

#1) Force these 'non-profit' organizations to spell out EXACTLY what our atv safety political platform consists of.........right down to setting the size, age and CC requirements that are inevitably going to upset some of their very own members enough that they probably won't renew their memberships.

me:
how are we going to FORCE them to do anything? how? what could we really do? It's either petition them very strongly, and I mean strongly- and have just about EVERYBODY do it... or the only other way is to cut off their money, whether they be "non profit" or not. Non profit my butt! Someone's getting the money and getting paid to do NOTHING! Hit em where it hurts. Dont pay them until they address our concerns..but once again losing my dues and your dues isnt going to lower anyones salary or provoke change. WE need everyone's help on this. remind them that IF they had all 700,000 new atvers alone in the club - look at all the money they could get...and to do stuff with....but they will ONLY get it IF they truly REPRESENT us. Period. Or we start a club that matters. No, NOT another BS slinging club, but a true riders' club that is CONCERNED and not AFRAID to stand up for things. Now, we have to do that respectable- but sternly and forcefully. We dont need to be a bunch of seemingly wild renegades, or we will get no respect and we wont get anywhere and will only accelrate an untimely fate. We need activists FOR US.
I love the USA, but I goota tell ya, in this country, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. If we arent sqeaking, we get no oil or we will be oiled with numbing oil and put to us sleep to satisfy some greenpeece, or over zealous NUT who's only concern is making a name for themselves in the midst of their own hyprocrisy.

quote:
#2) Don't give us all some petition to sign that forces THE GOVERNMENT to figure out was is "appropriate" or "fits" when it comes to these limits.
These national organizations held up "Utah" as a desirable program to train youths outside the CPSC consent agreement..................The way 'I' read their laws?.........no helmet required over the age of 18.......no child under the age of '8' can ride.......and there is absolutely no provision that your child must be supervised! Did they even bother and look at "Michigan" for an example?............a place where some of these GAPING HOLES are already filled and kids are training on quads 'over' 90 CC? How can your mission statement claim that adult supervision is the 'ideal'.............. and then point to a state where there is absolutely no regard for the concept?

me:
I dont know about the laws of these states so I cant comment. BUT, the only petition I am willing to sign is one that stands up for responsible quad riders who do not want the goverment in their butts trying to take quads away. It is not their sole resposibility. But, sadly, in this world, if the government is not behind soemthing with law in one hand, then there is no point in having any rules b/c you will have a hard time enforcing them without the gov behind it. We do not need any more regulation concerning quads. We merely need BETTER ENFORECEMENT of the ones we already have; with only certifiable exceptions (like a good young rider on a bike over 90cc;certifiable by licensing and training course) any other suggestion on HOW to do this other than FORCE (how? how? how?) then???

quote:
#3) We are being told that THE GOVERNMENT should provide "more opportunities" for safety training.............so .......HOW MANY KIDS should 'they' have to train and how much is it going to cost ('us') per student? Do we partially subsidize all these kids or send big fat checks to atv trainers all over this country for the entire cost?

me:
I dont want the govenment to provide training. I want the dealers to insist the potential newbie or troubled riders to step up with the manufactures behind them and get training to operate the machine safely. The gov does not provide me a car to take my drivers test, nor does it pay for my car or my insurance. At most, i want the gov to allow for it and somehow ( i dont know yet) have licensing and certifiable training before someone takes a quad home for the first time. And have the license renewable JUST like any other motorvehicle or face fines and lose priveledges if in violation of the regulations.
WE will have to pay for training on top of the purchase price of the bike. I dont mind that - but it needs to stay out of the gov't's hands or we will never see anything. I dont expect the gov to pay for anything.
But it NEEDS to go to some organization (like maybe formed by a joint venture between all the manufacturers, in fund specifically for this) that is accountable for it.


quote of me by blackballed:
...."To cut down on the ignorance, the "evil empire" of the national organizations are suggesting more training. Whats wrong with that?....."

quote from blackballed:
(#2) You darn well tell the government EXACTLY what it's going to cost for these safety programs and who EXACTLY is goiong to be "left behind" each year when the number of fundable students is 'finite' (again, another subject that nobody seems willing to talk about) .

me
HOW tell the gov anything?? (i'm not addressing anything about costs here; i spoke of that above)
One or two people write them and get a pretty letter back? No!! EVERYBODY has to get involved - write, call, and INTELLIGENTLY tell them (and the CPSC) what we think on atv issues. EVERYBODY write get involved for your rights, or you will lose them and be stuck riding 90cc bikes with 2 inches of travel, that go 5mph, and that are enclosed in a "saftey" bubble! or worse - the fate of 3wheelers. We CANNOT let this happen again; dont be passive on this thing.

And to all that dont think we need another club - fine - dont join. BUT if we get all under another ROOF that truly represents us and our concerns, then isnt it worth being in a club like that? Independently scattered, we are not as strong as a force of a however many thousands or million or so we are; we will be heard.

thanks, i hope this makes sense.

 

What is even worse than being effectively 'kicked out'.............is the fact that there were and still 'are' people in that club who didn't have a darn thing to say when you (or I) left!

I'm sorry, but when people stand around and let things like this happen...............they are NO DIFFERENT than the 'family' they are protecting.

These boys got promised a 'big city' riding area if they would IGNORE any problems regarding the rest of the state, SHOUT DOWN anybody who 'dared' questioned anything to do with their leadership and KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT no matter what was said...........period!

I'm laying less and less blame on the leadership.................where in the heck were his "posse" when all this was going down?

I'll tell you where...........wiping the brown streaks off their noses and asking what they could do to keep anybody 'else' from asking the same questions.

Does somebodty see this differently(?).........if so, I want to hear their explanation and what 'they' have been doing to expose all this CRAP !!!

I have never seen a more sorry bunch of selfish individuals in my entire life. But you know what?..........they'll get what they wanted!..........and maybe there's a lesson there for all of us. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]