KTMGUY70,
I understand where you are coming from in YOUR area,for the most part,its just not the case here in Michigan.Cyclist do have trails,that,because of the trails width,an ATV cannot get down it.

If an ATV cant get down the trail,it cant be accused of digging rutts,tossing beer cans ect ect ect.And what im tring to say here is that,if these guys want MORE trails for cycle only use,than they ought to PAY for it out of a seperate cycle only fund.

These cyclist can allready access all of our 3100 miles of trails on their bikes,no matter what the width of the trail is,and to build more cycle only trails is wrong when the ATV $$ support most of the trail maintenance in the first place.

 

Muddy, I get to riled up By all Of this, so Im gonna respectively say, I understand your point.. I dont agree with it, But I understand it. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one topic, I think we agree on most everything else, More Safety, More responsability, and better management by both groups of users.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: ktmguy70
"...Muddy, the school Example does fit, because you pay into it, and have not a whole lot of say about where it goes.If the quads outnumber the bikes x 3 then again I say the Bikers are getting the raw end of the deal. Where there use to be Single track, that THEY PAYED FOR with their sticker fees, there is now an 8 foot wide swamp fest. Whos getting screwed here?...."

Again, this is the mindset of the Amish-like motorcyclist. He took his horse and buggy back in the "old days" and built a road through (and this is the part these guys absolutely hate) <u>our</u> PUBLIC land. Along came more advanced forms of transportation that benefitted the ENTIRE community (as atvs and RUVs do today for so many <u>more</u> people) and the Amish did exactly what the motorcyclists refuse to.

They didn't take up arms against the rest of the community and demand that these roads be kept SOLELY for themselves....they COEXISTED with the rest of us AND WE ACCOMODATED THEM.

What these cyclists are in danger of doing now; is exposing themselves for who they are....selfish and arrogant users who want to ride ALL of the trail systems and still grab as many more miles behind closed doors as they can get away with (see the attempted land grab up here in Michigan that not a ONE of them will simply come out of the shadows and give us all an official position on).

'...I mean Im getting to the Point where, although I Like Quading on my own property, Its Just not fun to hit the public riding areas. Beer, swamps, and idiots is all I see around here. If you doubt my Scenario, take a look at the thousands of Web pages dedicated to the subject of ATVING and youl see 80 % Pictures of Just ripping up land, People toasting with beer...."

Uhhhhhhhh, am I missing something here?.....

 

I've been into the 3-4 wheeler scene since 1983 and in Michigan,the vast majority of users do the right thing.But because our sport involves the enviroment and injuries,the only thing non-user's see is the BAD.And there are a few usless users on BOTH cycles and ATVs.

I get really irrate when I see posts like a few of the ones you can read in Thumpertalk.com talking about abuse being ALL the ATVers fault.

I aint buying into that crap,I been around the sport TOOOOOOOOOOOO long to know better!

 

Being from CA I'm totall in agreement with mywifesquad (I actually drove through Newman this morning on I-5 heading to Tracy.) The OHV system(s) in CA are very diversified. Beach, dunes, desert, hilly trails (hard to describe but I'm talking about Hollister, in case mywife's can describe it better), forest roads and highly technical trails. And we don't seem to have the Us vs. Them problems. It seems to more be OHV Users vs. No Access.

As far as technical, the most technical I ride is Miami Motorcycle Trails. They date back to the 50s from what I hear. And I think it was in the 80s when it was officially adopted and a lot of work done by the Conservation Corps. Officially, there is a 40" maximum width for the park, but you see about 1/4 or less usage by quads. It's kind of the really good time up there (the rains keep the dust at bay), but the snow hasn't started to set up yet. It's at about 4000' so snow doesn't stay in all parts of the area.

We (my quad riding buddies) let the MCs go by. They are faster and quicker around there. On a quad you can spend some time setting up for a run at a section. Including actually stopping, getting off the bike, and looking around the corner, down or up the hills. Personally, I prefer going DOWN the trail than trying to climb them. They are just to rutted out. Nearly all of the ruts are from water run-off. (I think I posted that before.) There is one trail there that I know even seasoned MC guys won't take. It's almost vertical and a nasty rutted out section.

I've never been scoffed at for my choice of ride. Though one guy makes comments about our "training wheels." He's a big MC guy and it's all in kidding around. Most other riders are always helpful. I got a kick out of trying to explain to a well experienced MC rider how to take corners on a quad on a track. This guy has been riding for a number of years. He's a traffic officer so he's on a bike almost every day. He finally started getting the whole hangin off the inside of the quad.

To ride each machine to it's limits takes skill. With an MC you are having to balance, but you only get a front to back "bucking" action. On a quad, you're not balancing, but you are taking a bucking action on that left-right axis. Just riding down an easy trail, or road, an MC probably takes more skill. Once you start throwing in obstacles and what not, the curve starts to even out. Some stuff, an MC can just gas it, get the front off the ground and go over it. Whereas a quad might take more finess... like a downed tree. There's one at Miami (below) that's been down for years. The bike just hit it, and go over. Most quads get hung up on it.

Our $25 bi-annual fee goes into the OHV Trust Fund. A small portion of the state gas tax also gets deposited into the Trust Fund. Luckily, the trust fund hasn't been raided (a big portion of the gas tax was raided and funneled to education uses...now our roads are thrashed!) Most of the money goes to the SVRAs (I believe there are 7 of these throughout the state), with the USFS, BLM as well as local (city/county) agencies applying via a grant process for OHV funds. I want to say off the top of my head that yearly expenditures are about $30M-$40M. And that's pretty much what they bring in.

I think it would be nice to see a line item budget to see how self-sufficient the SVRAs are. Though, some places, like Oceano Dunes, not everyone goes to ride. I know people who just go to camp on the beach. ODSVRA is the only beach in CA that you can still drive on. Some people go to fish, jet ski, seen one guy flying this model glyder thing, horse back riding, walking, bicycling (though that seems like WAY too much work on the beach.) They actually have a lot of maintenance to do there. Fencing, waste disposal (they have like 3 roll aways for trash...anyone ever see them empty those things? That was got to be interesting), trash pickup out in the dunes (trash cans at each restroom) as well as actually pumping out those bathroom (large pit style toilets...like a 5' square concreate porta potty with a pit under it).

I have more bookmarks at work on OHV Trust Fund income and expenditures at work. Maybe I'll post those come Monday or Tuesday. Funds go towards normal operation, maintenance, etc. to even special funds for additional law enforcement work at places like Glamis where they have huge problems with near lawlessness.

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[quote]
Originally posted by: blackballed
Blackballed, If you have 3,000 miles of atv trails, Then I GURANTEE you that you can call some of those ATV only trails because of the fact of that unless you have 4 wheel drive, 28 inch tires, snorkels, and winches, and more often than not, BEER, you cannot access these areas on Motorcycle. Your calling a group of users (cyclists) who for many decades existed without interference from environmental groups and landowners arrogant because they want some single track to themselves? Isn/t that the pot calling the kettle black? Do you want cars running on your atv trails? I dont think so. The way I see it, the way us atvers have the environmentalist and property owners trying to shut everything down because of irresponsible use, Im glad I still have a bike and some single track because sure as crap when everything else gets shut down we can still have some trail to ride with bikes.

And no, your not missing anything inless you have your eyes closed.

 

I'd be very CAREFULL with your gaureentee's?????I cant think of a single mile of Michigans 3100 miles of trail that a cyclist CANT access because of the reasons YOU mentioned.And actually,you dont see ATVers and beer drinking going on either.There WAS a time when you did,but the same can be said for drinking and driving a automobile.It USED to be a socially accepted way of life,BUT,now most folks realize the trouble you can get into,and most dont drink and ride ATVs,not in Michigan anyways..If you choose to drink and ride ANY type of ORV in our State,you better not be intoxicated.It holds the SAME penalty as if you are in your automobile.

Many rutts you may see on a trail were created many yrs ago by 4x4 trucks[WELL BEFORE the invention of the ATVs],and most cyclist dont bother with these types of trails anyways because they dont like wide trails in the first place.But yet,when an ATV CROSSES one of these rutts or plays in it,than its the ATVer that reaps the blame for the original errosion?

Prior to 1991,you used to be able to access allmost any singe or two track dirt path in the State of Michigan.In 1991,it went from an OPEN unless posted closed trail system,to CLOSED unless posted open[in the Lower Pennisula].They blamed these closings on indescriminate ORV use.

Today,allmost 15 yrs later,I can HONESTLY see NO DIFFERANCE in the trail condition of the 100s of miles of trails near my in-laws house in northern Michigan.I drive my LEGALLY Sec of State licensed Dodge truck down these trails all the time,and they are NO DIFFERANT now than they were 15yrs ago when it was legal for me to ride my ATV down them with just an ORV sticker.

I call this INDESCRIMINATE leadership.

 

Well Muddy, if you can drive your truck down all the trails there in your state, then we are truly in two different worlds, And Im happy for you. But my gurantee stands, Because Anywhere I have ridden. (NC,SC,PA,MD,WV) Theres not a whole heck of alot a truck is going to fit down other than the old strip roads which are pretty boring, But then again, because I find this riding boring, I dont seek it out., On the Bike I seek out single track for the challenge, On the quad I search for trails that stock 4x4's can go, which there isnt a whole lot left out there any more Unless you wanna ride off the trail around the bad spots, Which of course is Taboo.

 

A street licnesed vehicle in Michigan does NOT require an ORV license to use a forest road,but will if it is used on a designated ORV trail system.The 100s of miles of forest roads behind my in-laws house are OPEN for licensed street vehicles[ie-4x4 trucks]but you and I cant access this same area on our ATVs or Cycles.

Just a BIG WASTE of forest trails to me.These same trails are in NO BETTER condition today than they were 15 yrs ago when the DNR closed them down to ORV use.

 

Thank's for backing up what I have been thinking about Ca. I have been amazed at what goes on in other states. I am not sure if we have the same 3 to 1 ratio of quads bikes that is talked about here. I do know that when I go to pismo that there are more quads than bikes(10 to 1 maybe) although there is way more bikes there than there was in the late '80's. If I go to carnegie(park I frequent most) there is probubly a 6 to 1 bike to quad ratio. Hollister(have not been there for 5 yrs or so) was about 50/50 back then. As for national forrests, Fouts spring staging area, past Stonyford is also heavy into quad use probubly 50/50. I have never rode miami flat but did drive in there with my 4X4 on a trip to yosemite about 4yrs ago. Seemed prety nice, good campimg areas etc... If you are ever driving thru Newman on a Friday again and want to stop by. Send me a PM and if I am not working(I usually work a 4 10hr day work week) I'll give you directions.