Muddy4life is right on trac. In the last 30 years I have spent a tremendous amount of time trying to combat the out and out lies and diversionary tactics of the enviros with arguments of fact and discussions based on common sense. These were discussions about forest management so you all know the outcome........I (WE) lost. The local Forest Service has eliminated most (not all) of the professional land managers from their ranks. The local District ranger has no credibility nor any idea or comprehension of truth or trust. I suppose there are local ATV clubs but I certainly am not aware of them but I also have not seen indications of the terrible ATV riders others on this thread have referred to. My wife and I very rarely even see other riders even though at times we ride on ATV "trails". The ignorance and arrogance displayed by the Forest Service and encouraged by the enviro's is the driver behind the movement to close the public out.
The initial and major issue is lockout.
The secondary issues are the manners of those that use the public grounds.
A similar issue would be the closure of I84 from Portland Oregon to Ontario Oregon because 1/2 of 1% of the users drive irrationally............Tass

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: JohnO
"...This was turning into an interesting discussion - can we agree that personality conflicts will make no positive contribution to it? We need to unite and face a serious problem together, not bite at each other...."

Agreed. Mr. Muddy has been supporting the censorship of folks who bring up these topics in his own club forum; I see no reason to give him the courtesy of discussing issues <u>here</u> he doesn't want Michigan riders discussing <u>there</u>.(and oh boy, have there been a bunch of 'em! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] ).

"...An essential point needs to be made here. Trails are being closed at an alarming rate - clearly there is a problem, and it is getting worse. Can this be reversed?If it's private land, then the economic benefits will either sell or not sell the idea. In some fortunate areas, such as Hatfield-McCoy, there is unused land available, and an impoverished area that welcomes the additional income...."

I guess i'll have to disagree with you here in that 'some' folks are welcoming this activity and <u>many</u> are not. What many of us 'well off' Yankees may not realize... is that these trails are but a fraction of what is illegally being ridden back in these mountains every day. And the only way you will ever get these people on board with anything resembling "pay-to-play" down there...is that if <u>we</u> pay and <u>they</u> play (I'm telling you that the majority of folks down there WILL NOT pay to play because they either can't afford to or just plain don't <u>want</u> to). While understanding your point, I think we underestimate the very problems I've been pointing out for years now; issues which have given rise to "safety-free" zones like Windrock in the first place.

"...Document these cases thoroughly for later presentation, and try to get someone with experience in business presentations to assist. Communities will take you more seriously if you have done your homework. If you just say - it worked here - that doesn't carry much weight. If you can show how much money a trail brought in, they may start to listen...."

One of the problems we have in the areas you mention is that many of these trails <u>weren't</u> brought before the locals you mention in the manner specified because of the very same reason no one fights to stop the carnage that goes on at Windrock every day....THEY KNOW WHAT THE OVERWHELMING RESPONSE WILL BE AND HAVE TO <u>LIVE</u> THERE AFTERWARDS. It's unfortunate that shoving these trails down these folk's throats turned out to be an economic blessing for many of them; yet this doesn't wash the sour taste out of their mouths for others.

"..If it's public land, then political action is necessary. I've come into contact with USFS people, and I can guarantee you that they are not out to get ATV riders, any more than they are out to get rock climbers or loggers, or any other group that has had their activities restricted. They aren't out to get anyone. They are simply responding to their bosses, Congress, and it's bosses - the voters. It is important to understand that, so that you also understand what action needs to take place, and understand what shouldn't be done. Condeming USFS people as evil just ticks off the very people you want to persuade, and it paints you as unrealistic and immature...."

Agreed, this is why trying to convince an atv club that they should actually <u>meet</u> with the officers issuing tickets (both beforehand and 'unfortunately' afterwards) while 'after-the-fact' they rave on and on about "hell no, why do we need to do that..they're <u>all</u> s.o.b.'s" conjures up the same view for me...unrealistic and immature. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

"...Their (environmentalist's) chief reasons (for opposition to atvers) seem to be: lots of noise, which can be solved with the ultra quiet mufflers..."

Good idea, yet now you must force the AMA/ATVA (the only people organized nationally) to take a <u>no-tolerance</u> stand on the pipes which are out there. This is the same issue with helmets.The only way you will make a dent in these issues is to **** off <u>the very same people who pay your salary through annual dues to both organizations!!!</u>. If anybody thinks for a second that the AMA is going to camp out at any large trailhead or event trying to flag folks down about how loud their pipe is or why their KID isn't wearing a helmet...YOU ARE KIDDING YOURSELF. Word would spread so fast about this that the next time these guys showed up at an event?...you'd have guys burning their membership card right in front of their faces and slashing their tires.

"...The same issue with, erosion and silt in streams which can be overcome by building good trails and maintaining them..."

Again, here's the motorcyclists, John. I get in front of these guys about the need for 21st century modern equipment to maintain over 3,000 miles of trails in the largest system in this country...and what do I RUDELY get told?..."wellll, we haven't found any equipment like that which will fit down a motorcycle trail!" If you can't get the ATVA to fight like something other than a red-headed step-child against the very same people who chartered 'em...where do you begin? Have every atver in the country be required to first swear their allegiance to the AMA before 'anything' is dicussed?
Heck, we've got a large atv club right <U>now</U> begging to join a motorcycle club who just recently got caught trying to evade taxes on trail maintenance funds! (and this happened after the atv club <U>first</U> tried to convince their dues-paying members that they would 'god-forbid' never be influenced by this very same organization!).
Trails <U>can</U> be fixed and intelligently maintained by caring individuals/clubs...you just first have to <u>find</u> people intelligent enough to understand these important concepts in the first place and who can accurately describe what a true multi-use trail system SHOULD look like.
</u>
Ran out of time...

 

Well I know better than to follow bbaled.. but here goes... I think we have hit on th eissues and the answers in our discussion here. The real issue as I see it is that government agencies.. and not pointing directly at the forest service or the DNR .. but all agencies in general.. are struggling these days financially with congress holidng tight reins on the purse strings, while all agencies are seeing huge reductions in budgets due to the war efforts, and the hurricanes etc. All this filters down to programs that may be good or bad, but for what ever reason, they just cost too much to impliment. That forces the agency to drop them completely, or they take the path of least resistance and take actions to resolve what they perceive to be the biggest complaints. These complaints by the way do come from well financed, and well organized groups that the environmental lobby supports. Huge sums of money are being taken up defending themselves in the courts rather than doing any good in the field.

This is where we (You and I) need to be more involved. First, we must make sure that correct and unbiased information is presented when appropriate. Second, we need to let our elected officials know, and I mean regularly and often, that we the people who ride ATV's have a vested interest in the many issues before them for consideration.

And lastly, we need to involve ourselves locally in not only educating the masses to the responsibilities that go with owning an ATV, but we must support policies that are in place and see that laws are enforced. This may mean that it takes the form of supporting law enforcement, or working WITH local Forest service/DNR agencies to ensure the laws are enforced justly. It may mean that we as a group, be that club sponsored or not, lend a hand to see that those projects that are moving forward get finished. Many times they do not because of lack of labor... something that we all can rectify... If trails are being trashed, then clean them up... it is that simple. Strap a milk crate on teh back next weekend and pick up a few cans or bottles next time you ride.... every little bit helps, and people seeing you do this may think twice about throwing it into the woods next time..

The biggest challenge we face today is image and perceptions.. To hear some in the media today, we are worse than the Hells Angels of long ago.... That is something that has to be changed.... and it starts with you and me...

What we don't need it rock throwing... I might not always agree with everyone's opinions.. but I'll be the first one to admit they have a RIGHT to it...

 

Image is public perception of ATV riders. Read most any topic on this board; 'Will it do wheelies', 'mine'll do 85mph on the street', 'I had to get the truck to tow it out of the great mud hole we created', 'pulled that 200-year old cactus down like it was a toothpick', 'stupid cops', 'stupid land owners', stupid enviros, stupid forest service, etc. Many sound like former Hells Angels who went to ATVs.

The major obstacle ATV riders face in public acceptance is the attitude of that group who consider it their right and desire to operate ATVs in a irresponsible manner. They do get all the attention because that's what their tiny, insecure minds are after. The public far, far outnumbers ATV riders and that public includes LE, private land owners, enviros, forest service and the media. Until responsible riders build bridges of mutual trust with the public that condemns the irresponsibles to their own garages, available riding area, public and private, will continue to diminish as fast as the 'stupid' public can make it happen.

 

Buy that man a cigar.....

 

QUOTE by BLACKBALLED**Agreed. Mr. Muddy has been supporting the censorship of folks who bring up these topics in his own club forum; I see no reason to give him the courtesy of discussing issues here he doesn't want Michigan riders discussing there.[and oh boy, have there been a bunch of 'em!]END of Quote**

That could'nt be further from the truth..In fact,the ONLY person ever thrown off of our Website [of OVER 800 members] since its introduction two yrs ago,was BlackBalled,and it had NOTHING to do with CENSORSHIP of ANY topic of discussion.In my defense,Blackballed has been TOSSED out of more ATV related forums than he currently is allowed to post on.

That in itself speaks highly for his character and credability.

 

Wherever it comes from, the image is a problem. I am surprised at the number of people who have seen my big Cat parked on my farm, and asked why I would own one of those land destroying machines... the answer is, it's a lot easier on the ground than a truck (lot more fun too, but that's another story). Still, I'm nothing but surprised at the number of people who think that. Got our work cut out for us there.

Something that still has me puzzled - I remember as a kid back some 30 years ago, reading stories about sleds having a similar image - chasing wildlife, knocking down fences, the sort of thing that seems to get attributed to atv's today. Right now, I can't remember the last time I read a negative news story about sleds. They have obviously cleaned up their image. We don't get sleds much here in KY, maybe five days a year when one could be operated. Maybe some of you people up north could shed some light on that - how did they clean up their image?

I like the idea of trail and forest cleaning. Offer to help the local nature groups clean up the forest - my Cat with it's trailer can haul a lot of trash.

 

JohnO, As far as negative press the emphasis in this part of Oregon is almost always placed on pickups. Photo's of ruts, articles full of holy indignation from forest service representatives, and pleas for someone to turn in the bad guys. The continuing move toward denial of access for sleds, bikes, 4 wheelers and pickups is a rather quiet, behind the scenes, little bit at a time is more like a fog or darkness that drifts quietly but steadily across the land. "Not with a roar, but with a whimper" is probably a fitting description. Any activity can be condemned because its "bad for the salmon" whether there is any impact or not. Perhaps the latest and greatest of this closure "for the good of mankind and salmon" is the policy of "If it is not marked open it is closed". Anyone run into that little policy yet? One of the threads makes reference to all the illegal trails and paths now in use............My wife and I are absolutely one of those illegal trail and path users and creators..........What makes it illegal to travel public lands? Administrative rule, not law, in most cases is the answer. Our new Rubicons have 250 hrs and over 1200 miles on them now, not much wheelie popin, 65mph, gravel throwing, going on here is there? We choose not to follow a herd, we choose not to destroy the ground we travel, we choose to ignore the administrative rules that are attempting to eliminate what we do. I suspect at some point we will have to pay the price for our actions. We will pay that price and then continue. We have children and grandchildren that in some way, in some fashion, must have the ability to travel alone, in places there are no roads, in places there are no crowds, in places of their choosing and in a manner of their choosing. My wife and I teach them to tread lightly and quietly, we teach them to use with respect and travel with dignity. A government does not and cannot do this.............A government can only condemn and restrict..............Tass

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

I'm the one who generally has trouble following you, DB [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]; yet here goes:

"...First, we must make sure that correct and unbiased information is presented when appropriate..."

I think a lot of people simply dismiss this issue off-hand as kind of "well how in the heck can information from the government or (god forbid) even our own community be incorrect or unbiased....WE'RE ONLY TALKING TRAILS HERE FOR GOSH SAKES...<u>NOT</u> THE FATE OF THE FREE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT!

Quick example:
I am waiting for our state government to simply 'schedule' a Michigan orv advisory board meeting.
These meetings are the only formal contact we have with them here in Michigan regarding any and all orv issues.
Our orv community sits back and says absolutely <u>nothing</u> when these meetings were cut from six times a year to four.
Nary a 'peep' from even one of them when the official stenographer was taken away also. (allowing the state to characterize these meetings any way they wanted with no proof that they said or promised anything...and no movement from within the community to simply pay the gal's wage who did it).

So now, we sit here and <u>wait</u>... two weeks after installing an orv advisory board that took well over a year to install (the board finally couldn't even field a quorum to conduct business...not enough current members present) for the state to even so much as "schedule" the next meeting...LET ALONE GIVE OUT CONTACT INFORMATION FOR THE NEW REPRESENTATION 'FINALLY' INSTALLED <u>ON IT</u>! (From the state yesterday: "The press office is establishing standards for contact information for all of the Department's boards, commissions and advisory groups. Once these standards are established this information will be posted on the Department's web site..."). THIS "REVIEW" PROCESS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WELL OVER A YEAR...THE STATE ADVISES ME LAST YEAR, THAT THE PROCESS DIDN'T NEED TO BE REVIEWED....SO I'M STUCK HERE ASKING WHY <u>ANY</u> REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CITIZENRY AND/OR THE ORV COMMUNITY ACTUALLY ***NEEDS*** THE STATE'S PERMISSION TO SIMPLY DISPLY THEIR CONTACT INFORMATION IN THE FIRST PLACE! (AS OUR SNOWMOBILE ADVISORY BOARD HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM DOING! (Yeah, I ask some pretty 'dumb' questions when folks try to take issues BEHIND CLOSED DOORS such as CURRENTLY how $4 million of suddenly 'unfrozen' license money is going to be spent; how our 25 year orv update plan is being debated and why my local "motorcycle" group thinks they, and only they, should be involved in discussing where over 750 miles of suddenly 'new-found' trails are going to be laid down when they're trying to muscle in a big city suburban riding area at the expense of the 'old' system!).
Here we are stuck between an orv community who doesn't give a rip if they ever contact the very people who represent them (you can't get these guys like Muddy to fight for <u>anything</u> that might cause their AMA lacky 'hero' on the board to lose face)....and ***orv representatives*** hiding behind the state's skirt until some kind of 'contact standards' are established that open up the lines of communication with them...standards that they won't even be held to by virtue of the very timing of their enactment! (I do give the law enforcement member of this board a lot of leeway on this; for obvious reasons).

Here's the kicker...I'm being charged $140 to research simple commentary by a few major Michgan orv groups regarding the single most important orv update plan this state has ever considered. This being the same "will of the community" information this state <u>should</u> be providing its DNR Direstor and <u>certainly</u> incoming members of an advisory board...WHO, <u>TO A MAN,</u> HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PUBLIC RECORD OF EVEN ATTENDING THE VERY SAME MEETINGS THEY APPLIED FOR AND ARE <u>NOW</u> PRESIDING OVER!!!
Hey, if this 'stupid' citizen (me)...will actually 'pay' for what should have been distributed for the sake of decision makers actually understanding the issues they rule/advise on...why not? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Again, my point is this (echoing DB's #1)....if you don't question the very people <u>making</u> these decisions; as to their honesty, accuracy and simply just 'straight-forwardness' (do they act like 'a man' or do they excell in blowing people off?) ...you'll be spinning your wheels and never even get to the issues themselves, save fighting the smokecreen put up in front of you (which is exactly what these people want).

 

I guess the day somebody proves where I have lied about any issue that I have absolutely no motive to <u>lie about</u> (I'm not the one trying to run a "non-profit" here [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] ....I'll agree that even the very <u>simple</u> (god forbid) 'questioning' of those who have chosen to lead our community....is not a pursuit worth instructing our kids to pursue. (if I have to argue with safety trainers over the ridiculousness and "why don't you stand up like a man and fight it" of charging parents to 'sit in on' their kid's orv training classes...it's a pretty tough row to hoe. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]