I think you miss Tass' point, DB....he claims atvers don't "require" groups or anybody else for leadership...they lead <U>THEMSELVES</U> for their <U>kid's</U> sake.

Again, statements like this require somebody in the communtiy to actually 'debate' the ridiculousness of its content..not the same 'ol "well, by gosh he said <U>'something'</U>..." knee-jerk reaction that we continually witness on these forums.

If you side with this kind of crap...how can I respect any of the previous "working together" diatribe you've advocated previously?

 

That's the public image. And it's not going to go away through education, religion, parental direction or any other idealistic factor. All the posts here regarding organization attest to the fact that internal policing just doesn't work. Give LE some teeth and, like most societal problems where a few harm or restrict many, you'll get it corrected to an acceptable level. That's what they do. Big fines and possible confiscation will get the attention of most flakes and any LE agency would welcome the addition of equipment/revenue and reduction of a destructive nuisance political image. There's a system in place to solve those problems, why not empower it to do so? As Tass correctly states, once focus on a issue is lost that issue will flounder and without legal enforcement of issues, any effort will fail. Use the system and get LE involved up front on organizational matters. Most LE agencies can provide a cost benefit analysis of fines/confiscation offsetting tax money spent on response calls currently producing no revenue and that's the magic bean for virtually every public agency and politician.

No, I'm not LE nor do I have any professional affiliation with LE. But I do know how the system, especially the political aspect, works. And that's from within, not as outsiders. For those who have a fear or rejection of government interference for whatever reason, get over it. When it comes to the public domain, you're either part of the problem or the solution.

 

No.. I didn't miss the point.... His opinion is just as valid as anyone elses... and I respect that. Just like I respect your opinions... I do not think the majority of folk's thinking would be far off from either side, as there are points for consideration on both ends of the spectrum.

I agree with what he considers the causes, and what he supports as a means of enforcing/solving the issues of irresponsible behaviour. But like you I also feel that organized opposition will have greater impact on the outcome than singular acts. HOWEVER, that being said, I agree that personal responsibility starts with the parent instructing the youths in responsible trail riding.

See, I can take the middle road on both sides... and agree with everyone...

That is not a cop out, it is a compromise position....
PS AMEN Brother Georged... I support stronger enforcement one hundred percent.

 

What he's trying to tell you, DB.... is that he's not interested in how much you can 'agree' or 'get along' with any particular poster!...it's that <U>the time has come</U> to describe this community (and especially the 'organized portion we witness today) for what it is. If a man is reduced to trying to please every person who comes down the pipe having at the very least a 'half'-baked notion of where these solutions lie (see "we keep to ourselves" above)...then the time has come for LE to step in and cause the community to have some sort of 'religous experience' as to the work required by their orv community (these being folks 'unafraid' to speak the truth or 'god forbid' hurt somebody's 'feelings') to <u>truly</u> and <u>finally</u> unveil those same solutions.

These aren't 'gray' issues we are describing here..they are simply those which require each rider to simply stand up like a man or a woman while acting that way....or get their machine impounded, their wallet <u>emptied</u> and possibly their kid embarrased.

I know there are many out there who would like me (or you) to hold their hand while I inform them of that...yet there are plenty of groups like the AMA/ATVA who provide that service (for a fee) to them already. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

It would be very interesting to set around a table with 9 gallons of coffee and have all that have submitted a comment on this thread eye to eye, munching donuts and downing the vile black brew. Each has touched a bit on what the others have commented. My views are biased from the standpoint that I am protective of family, friends, and my uses of the world I have access to. This is as a hunter, rider of a Rubicon, and traveler of the forest lands in general with my Ford Sport-trac. There is very little private land in this corner of the world so I have no experience with that use at all. There are few clubs or organizations so I have no experience with that involvement. I express my views not so much as an "atv'er" but as a very private, (not quite a loner) that values personal freedoms and access very highly. My wife tells me I do not play well with large groups of others. In other areas of my life I have a few very close friends that I share activities with, such as shooting and hunting. I was going to try to put together a competition based on ATV use and a shooting trail. Oregon now has a law that forbids loaded weapons on an ATV and when the word got out I was considering it the Forest Service informed me they would "really be watching". Geez.........I am not an idiot, I just do not like crowds, I thank all of you for your comments, being from this rather isolated part of the world I really was not aware there were so many folks involved...........Tass

 

I guess it would and it wouldn't Tass....as the time would eventually come in that conversation when somebody would have to ask just exactly where the AMA /ATVA have been on these very issues for all these years (or even today)....while immediately someone from "District "X" would get all red in the face/ jump up and down claiming "blasphemy"....and the conversation would be over.

As I've said here in Michgan for years...when you have one group treating another like their little red-headed step-child...you'll never get past that nor attract intelligent lobbyists who don't see the orv community as something other than two v.s. four wheels.

 

Tass, your question is very valid and relevent. Unfortunately you have hit the nail on the head.. while some will concentrate on regional issues, others will try and answer from a more over all industry point of view. Hence what may be extremely important in one area, may be counter to something that is national in nature.
I guess the best answer is to say that there are national organizations out there that are trying to tackle the access issues etc.. and make sure that the data presented during hearings is accurate... but the need for grass roots local involvement is also very important to resolve not only local issues, but feeding into national ones as well.
Each person who does stand up and ask the question does so because they have not been happy with something.. and they take on the subject in the best way they know how. It isn't easy.. and sometimes you get more than you bargain for... but I think without a doubt, you will walk away with more knowledge than you came in with.
There are quite a few of us who have strong opinions... I think you have seen that... Just remember to sift through the data to find that which applies to your local issues.. and file the rest for future reference.
Welcome to the wild and sometimes whacky world of comment... It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys sometimes... And I hope things work out for you....DB