Dick, I don't care what anyone else feels is the motivation... even if the goals lean towards two wheelers..I figure the ATV crowd is going to benefit either way. I also feel that if every person who finds complaints with what is going on can find the same amount of time out working on trail maintenence issues as they do complaining and tracking the actions of other members of the board, a lot more could get accomplished. I am sure the DNR will tell you they need trail documentation. A comprehensive survey of conditions, markings, areas needing work etc. So the next time we go out riding, why not take time to takes some notes. This requires a program. It could be done online with riders submitting comments via formatted response.

Too many riders sit back and let the other guys.. you know, the board members, or the DNR etc take care of it. Well, it isn't going to get done without volunteers getting out there and doing the work. Simple things like hanging signs can go a long way and can be accomplished by just abbout anyone capable of swinging a hammer. Leave the more difficult stuff like berm building, bridge construction/repairs to teh professionals. Start with the local trails, and work from there. Get clubs involved in something more rewarding than capturing a bar somewhere. If the buck doesn't stop here, it will be lost. BUt they need a place to come to get that information... a clearing house so to speak.

I may not always like what I hear... but I sure respect the hard work that goes into both sides of this discussion.

From my perspective, I feel the board's responsibility now should be in setting up the infrastructure to 1) gather the trail information and analyzing it 2) assist in determining priority on where the maintenence dollars should be spent, and 3) providing the infrastructure where volunteer groups can work with you and the DNR in a coordinated fashion. In short... a PLANNED response.

The dollars can only go so far.... with a planned response, for once people cas see a "Program" that is laid out in the out years.... It is a whole lot easier to sell to the people that have the purse strings when you have a PLAN.

I think you have some of that already.. unfortunately many cannot see the work that got you this far.

 

DB, you have about as close as anybody. Sounds like you "Been there, Done that". Our biggest problem here is simply, too many machines for what trail we have, like some other states. We must have more trail on the ground and what we have, needs to be better maintained.

We then have the host of problems I described in one of my later post, again, like many other States. We have the proposed ORV Draft Plan in progress now, which encompassed over a year of study by a Dr., whose field is recreation, at Michigan State University. Ironically, out of 180,000 users, only 315 made written comment, and a portion of those are from opposition to, limited, or almost no ORV use in our forest. Certainly have the utmost respect for those who did respond and especially to those who turned out for the public hearings.

We are getting there, and our record already shows that. But we have lots of hoops to jump through.
Took years for things to get astray as they are, and it will take years more, to get things back on track.

Firmly believe, the next few months are really going to determine the direction our sport will go for use on public lands in Michigan. All the finger pointing, accusations and the like are not going move us forward. We have to be a unified group or suffer the consequences.

Your response is appreciated and one of the better post to date. We have in place, many of the things you suggested. We would have never gotten nearly 3,000 miles of trail on the ground over the past 30 years, without some serious organization. However, we have the need for a tremendous amount of new trail. If we are to get any significant amount of new trail, the question remains, who is going to build it, will we get voulnters or will it be government employees? Where is the money coming from?

Not hard to tell what is wrong, question is how to fix it within budget and make the most people happy.

 

Superman1, certainly do not disagree with you to some extent. What the "Task Force' recommended to the Chief of law Enforcement and the Director of the DNR was this;

A: a new video describing basic riding equipment for ORV's and Michigan Law. Be about 15 minutes
and designed to be shown at county fairs, shopping mall promotions, good for many others.

B. a classroom program only, similar to hunter safety, snowmobile and watercraft training now
administered by the DNR. Upon sucessfull completion, a student would get their ORV certificate,
cost to student, zero, $20 fee to the instructor is paid out of ORV Safety fund. No other fee can
be charged! Instructor will have to complete the academy and know how to ride. In 05, we saw
this class on many occassions, have over 50 students.

C. as we know it "hands on", again, instructor would have to complete the academy and know how
to ride. Upon sucessfull completion, the student will get their ORV certificate. Instructor will recieve
$35 fee from ORV Safety fund. There is no cap on any additional fee. Do believe competetion will
force the price down.

Prior to 05, we had just a handfull of training programs in the state. Not a pretty picture. We did not
have a great amount of students, even with $100. cash being offered by some manufacturers, with
a "credit slip" so to speak to get training. We also had no leadership from Department of Education for
decades, then we had some misunderstandings with DNR personal at the onset.

As you stated, I heard some of horror storys. Like to think they were not the norm, but I do know,
none of those instructing that I came in contact with, are driving a Cadillac. Hopefully, what we
"recommended", will be accepted, we get more kids trained and we heard the last of even a hint of
financial abuse. Under the "recommendations", each kid will have to provide their own machine, this
should cut some of the "overhead" for individual programs and lower the cost.

Now to get it accepted as the program of 06, we meet our goal of 10,000 kids being trained
annually, with the combination of both programs. Maybe CPSC announcements will change
everything, understand we could know this within a few weeks.

 

Busy Rider Quotables:
"...Firmly believe, the next few months are really going to determine the direction our sport will go for use on public lands in Michigan..."

"...Do you know who WE is...Are WE/I going to tell who helps us...within the political arena of Lansing? Don't hold your breath(!)....

...Let me assure anyone reading (that)...any decisions that are <U>major</U>, WE make them together through MMRC. I WILL NEVER REVEAL "who" all the allies are in MMRC....".

..."Took years for things to get astray as they are, and it will take years <U>more</U>, to 'get things back on track'....."

Isn't it great to have these guys determining the overall direction this sytem will take in but a "few months"....while all the while knowing that by virtue of what you witness above....they'll ALSO "catch" whoever put us in this position to begin with?

You couldn't write this script if you had to.

 

Still on Dick's first post:
[quote]
Originally posted by: BusyRider
"... FACT, $4.2 million "spend down" was authorized by an act of legislature, signed by the Governor on October 5th and $900,000 was placed in the ORV budget of 06 at the November 9th ORV Board meeting. This just didn't happen, it took action by several folks involved in Lansing....."

There was not a person in this orv community who didn't obviously <u>support</u> the release of this money or even a long-sought change in the orv handbook....what they didn't support were you goofs running around Lansing claiming that you represented users who knew absolutely nothing about what you represented at any given time.
Go ahead and "educate" us, Dick....just don't leave out the 'good' parts.

"...The $4.2 will be spent over the next 5 years, as per the long established formula, 50% for trail maintenance, 31.25 per cent for enforcement, 12.5 per cent for restoration, 3 1/8 per cent for administration and 3 1/8th per cent float. Remaining out of the 06 budget is $400,000. for trail maintenance, question now is how much will be spent for new signage and how much for additional grooming.There is also about $100,000. in the restoration fund. We can expect the DNR to tell us how these are going to be spent at the next ORV Board meeting....."

Again, this guy and his band of merry men aren't going to TELL US <u>what</u> they recommended the DNR do here with this extra money...as he is just here to 'educate you' on the subject....and nothing else.

"...HB 5343: Anyone who read that Bill and <U>understood </U>all they read, would soon realize, it was a piece of "undersireable legislation....".

Uhhhhh, gee 'Dick'....why don't you cut and paste a copy of that bill over to us here....we're having a little trouble FINDING IT. We would dearly like to see that bill, as the bill's sponsor (Rrepresentative Hildenbrand) has claimed that our community somewhat "misinterpreted" it.....

"....We can and will, do far better than that when its all over. Hope you all realize, some who post on here, are <U>not</U> telling it exactly like it is....."

When WHAT'S all over, Dick?
When these few months are past that (you say) will irrevocably shape our system and who rides what trail mileage on it.?
We'll do far Better?
How exactly will we do that?....by sitting around a campfire talking disgustedly about never adding 5 inches either way on a 50" trail....and how every trail will (obviously) then become some kind of "super-highway" because of it?

"....Was any mention made of the cost of widening about 1,000 miles of trail to 60" and who was going to do it?..."

Here's a guy who had no problem going after 3 times more money poured into these training non-profits...a guy who went after <u>750</u> **new** miles in the legislature without consulting anybody out here publicly (regarding 'cost')...and who NOW wants to ask US <u>why</u> there was no mention ON OUR PART of how much something might <u>cost</u> ....THAT WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE CHANCE TO COMMENT ON!
Who was going to do it? (widen the sytem)?
Wasn't this more about the <u>fact</u> that our latest orv update plan has already called for the privatization of maintenance grants or at the very least <u>allowing</u> Michigan for-profits the same chance to apply?
You're right, Dick...when you answer my questions about modern maintenance equipment with "we haven't found anything that will fit down a motorcycle trail"..I'm guessing that any trail widening to be done....won't be adding to your motorcycle club's yearly coffers! (gosh, wouldn't that be a shame...you cyclists might even be forced to give up your secret MMRC handshake!). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

All for now.....

 

I edited my frist post..didnt want to misquote or give false info for "ammo" for BB.

The head of the EDC (economic development committe) is my next door neighbor. She is also our county treasurer.

When the article on the front page of the Bay City Times came out with title of "ORV no more" (which in it states that Ogemaw county has seen a greater positive aspects of allowing us on the shoulders to access gas,food,lodging as opposed to negatives.) I showed it to her..and also showed her that the map they provided Oscoda county was colored in brigth RED..meaning no shoulder ORV use in our county. We stuck out in a sore thumb. I also stated that when "down staters" see this they would be more apt to using Ogemaw instead of our county to ride. Basically our county commisioners are telling us, OUR (orv) money is no good here...go to Ogemaw,or Montmorency.

She went on to give me political rhetoric about how SHE applied for a grant to "study the impacts of ORV use in all of Oscoda county."

Its a 3 phase study..we are in phase 2 of the study..should be completed by March of 06. (!) (?)

Our county commisioners are a little behind times on there thinking. If it was up to them 4 out 5 would still use horse and buggy.

The 1 commisioner thats pro ORV use in our county lives in the same district as me..so I'm hindered that it does me no good to run for commsioner when I would have to run against the one allie we have.

 

Heatseeker8, sounds like you have a good grip of the situation in Oscoda county. The final outcome of those discussions will be most interesting. Keep up the good work, the more we have involved at the local level, better for all of us. Local communities need to look at the convienance, recreational value and economic benefit ORV's provide to the entire community.
A subject matter often used in debate is very simple, a little country store, if they have 100 ORV riders stop in a week during riding season, they each spend $5.00 on a pop and snacks, store has a 30% mark-up, multiply that out for the riding season. That may mean the differance of a utility bill or two paid in the winter, store not operating on a charge card in winter months. Also, they may generate enough profit from added ORV business to afford a new car, lets hope it would be American made.
Often, father and son are out riding, mother and daughter are in town shopping. Consider what they spend, cost of fuel for the whole trip, food, lodging, expense of tow vehicle and portion of that wear and tear to that particular trip. It is estimated, and this was surprising, each dollar we spend in a community, is moved around seven times within the community before depletion!
A major lack of planning in the proposed ORV Draft Plan, is the measure of economic value we as a sport, offer to Michigan.
You are right, if the "fathers" of Oscoda county do not realize and appreciate the convienance, recreatonal and economic value of ORV's, one has to question their desire to be progressive and face the realities of todays world.

 

Dick,
we are wasting our time on folks like BB. By now,EVERYONE here with maybe the exception of Superman, fully understands that BB fell out of a ''stupid tree'' and hit every branch on the way down.It does'nt mattter what anyone says, his HISTORY will have him pointing fingers and never coming up with even a HINT for a solution.

Speaking of Superman?
Your figures are so far OFF,its amusing..You have NO IDEA of the preparation it takes to put together a hands on training class.You further have NO IDEA of the direct costs associated with performing one of these classes,much lesss the KNOWLEDGE and expertise to perform one [not saying you could'nt be trained though].I see you looking at 1000 students trained [which is WAY off] and adding up the total of income.Sorry my friend,but there's FAR more to the BOTTOM LINE than just 1000 x 30.00 per student.

If I were you, I sure as heck would'nt stop accepting overtime pay to jump the wagon on instructing ORV safety classes.

 

Well I just thought I would pop in and give ya's my 2 cents worth. I am a CCC member as well as a local chapter member. I volunteer my time in the summer to trail mainenantce, event trail marking and ridding sweep. I try to get as involves as my time lets me. Yes I could do more but in the end Offroad riding is a hobby. I have a real life to worry about. I prefer to use what weekend time I have enjoying the woods instead of complaining about them.

I for one think that the powers that be are doing a fine job. Sure there I have seen things happen that I dont like. But overall I think things are going the right way.

With all the griping and bitching I hear going on here about the horible state of out offroad trail system it could be a lot worse. We could have nothing. It is my firm belief that if it was up to the DNR they would lock every single person out of the woods (offroaders, hunters, fishers) and throw away the key.

Its because of clubs that we have the dialogue with the DNR that we are able to have what we have today. Could it be better. Sure what couldn't be. Could it be worse??? Absolutely.



In a recent issue of the CCC trailrider there was a request...No a plea for people to step up and offer there help to do trail work.

My name is on that list. I dont know what help may be needed in the futrure but I will do what I can when I can. At least its a positive step in the right direction. Better than standing on the sidelines and throwing stones.

 

YZman,
great post.Your an asset to the sport.

I also wanted to tell you that I completely agree with you that if it were all left up to the DNR,Michigan would have NO OFF ROADING what so ever..

Thank God for clubs and only a few noise makers like BB.