Didn't you chastise me for drawing parallels?

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Well, if the government is listening to a guy and his "old lady" (or her friend, sister, brother (hey, modern times...)) get it on, I think they screwed up, BIG TIME. Another reason to not trust them. The FBI gave up for the most part on investigating most of the data coming from the NSA, it all went nowhere.

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No. I felt like you wanted to argue with me about the subject of your analogy (computers) instead of the real subject you were trying to clarify in the first place with your analogy. This is different. He said my statements were lies and asked for backing so I gave it to him and I can't get him to discuss it now.

Now if he wanted to take my parallel and discuss only that rather than what it relates to...... then it would be the same thing and I would try to bring him back to where we were trying to go originally.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: DSNUT

 

Nice try but it won't work.

You asked me to provide backing for my "lies", in your words. I did that. Your post is another attempt to redirect rather than face the truth. This is three times now that you have evaded the evidence you asked me to get.

To recap, I made comparisons between what Al Qaeda says about Bush and the war on terror and what the Democrats say about Bush and the war on terror. You told me I better have backing for my lies. I provided a transcript of Bin Laden's last tape and in it he closely aligned himself with the ideology of the left.

No one is snapping their fingers. You have responded three times since I provided this information and each time you have chosen to ignore what you asked me to get. I thought you wanted to know why I thought what I thought. I am not asking for more of your time. I just want you to get on point with the time you are giving..... at least the point you asked me to back up.

You might be Republican but you are no conservative. Everything you say drips of liberalism. If you are liberal, you should be proud of that. There is nothing wrong with being liberal after all. What is important is that you believe what you say and are honest with yourself.

Whining? No one is whining. I am actually amused at how evasive you suddenly became. Ok, I can take a hint eventually.

 

Heres your response.
Do you believe 2+2=4? so did hitler..does that make you a ****?

nice try yourself.

 

heres your quote

"No. I felt like you wanted to argue with me about the subject of your analogy (computers) instead of the real subject you were trying to clarify in the first place with your analogy. This is different. He said my statements were lies and asked for backing so I gave it to him and I can't get him to discuss it now.

Now if he wanted to take my parallel and discuss only that rather than what it relates to...... then it would be the same thing and I would try to bring him back to where we were trying to go originally."

sounds like whining to me

The topic is the illegal spying on american citizens, and ill agree to stick to that topic.

 

Hondabuster,

"lets see the democratic quotes and then ill believe you."

Ok, this is all I had time for tonight but I have more........ But I don't think you will believe me or change your mind no matter what anyone says....

Exhibit 1

Osama – “Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving and becoming better, while your conditions are to the contrary of this.”

From John Kerry:
The al Qaeda, the front page story in The New York Times today is stronger in that region than it was so, yes, we have not been attacked here. Many people surmise the reason we haven’t been attacked here is because they’re being so successful at doing what they need to attack us in Iraq and elsewhere.

Exhibit 2

Osama – “The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.”

"The president rushed our nation to war without a plan to win the peace." -- John Kerry

(SAN ANTONIO) -- Saying the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean predicted today that the Democratic Party will come together on a proposal to withdraw National Guard and Reserve troops immediately………………….”80% of Iraqis want us to leave, and it's their country."

Exhibit 3

Osama – “If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.”

From Russ Feingold (this is your quote Honda!)

We all recall the President’s “Mission Accomplished” banner on the aircraft carrier on May 1, 2003. In fact, the mission was not even close to being complete. More than 2100 total deaths have occurred after the President declared an end to major combat operations in May of 2003, and over 16,600 American troops have been wounded in Iraq. The President misled the American people and grossly miscalculated the true challenge of stabilizing and rebuilding Iraq.

Exhibit 4

Osama – “However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy.”

Barney Frank (D-Mass.) concluded that "the time has come to get out" of Iraq.


Exhibit 5

Osama – “If you like, read the humanitarian reports on the atrocities and crimes in the prisons of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing.”

"Our nation will continue to be harmed by the reports of abuse of detainees in U.S. custody, the failure by top officials to take action, and the abandonment of our basic rules and traditions on human rights," he said. He even stooped to the moral-equivalence canard that some in the U.S. chose "to stoop to the level of the terrorists" and "deserve to be held fully accountable." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy, MA

I assure you I did nothing to change their words. We have been hearing this kind of stuff from the Democratic leadership and in an even more shrill way from activists such as Michael Moore and Moveon.org

When the enemy starts regurgitating what a major party in our country is saying because it helps his cause, don't you think that is a problem when victory is the goal?

Ron

 

"Exhibit 1

Osama – “Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving and becoming better, while your conditions are to the contrary of this.”

From John Kerry:
The al Qaeda, the front page story in The New York Times today is stronger in that region than it was so, yes, we have not been attacked here. Many people surmise the reason we haven’t been attacked here is because they’re being so successful at doing what they need to attack us in Iraq and elsewhere."

sorry but not good enough.where, anywhere in those two statements do they speak about the same thing. Where does John say"i support osama"?



I tried to make my response to your question brief and to the point, but i must not have been clear enough.

If person A, makes an observation of the facts (such as you knowing 2+2=4), and person B, makes the very same exact observation of the facts (in this case, hitler also agrees that 2+2=4, is a fact), then the ONLY conclusion you can reach, is that person A and person B, agree to one specific fact. Thats all. No more. Anything else is speculation, and not fact.

This is a time worn tactic by faux news and other right wing hate and smear groups.

What Im looking for is the smoking gun...where a democratic politician comes out and says, "i support everything that al quida and osama stand for" then youd have your proof. Anything else is a smear tactic...kind of like if i started calling you a **** sympithizer, because you and hitler agree on one fact, that 2+2=4, which i would convienetly leave out the part that the rest of the world agrees to that fact as well. and id also leave out there theres probably nothing else you two could agree on.



"Exhibit 2

Osama – “The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.”

"The president rushed our nation to war without a plan to win the peace." -- John Kerry




Exhibit 3

Osama – “If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.”

From Russ Feingold (this is your quote Honda!)[wrong...its russ's quote, i didnt make it up]

We all recall the President’s “Mission Accomplished” banner on the aircraft carrier on May 1, 2003. In fact, the mission was not even close to being complete. More than 2100 total deaths have occurred after the President declared an end to major combat operations in May of 2003, and over 16,600 American troops have been wounded in Iraq. The President misled the American people and grossly miscalculated the true challenge of stabilizing and rebuilding Iraq."

Both people are again, in agreement on this fact. In fact i would be surprised if two independant people did not agree on facts. People only disagree on opinions. Its been stated many times in the past, and by republicans too, that there was a severve lack of planning . In fact bush apoligized for this...his one and only weak moment. this should be lumped here too, because bush himself is in agreement with osama.

Speaking to the Council on Foreign Relations, a nonpartisan policy group, Bush noted that Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), a supporter of the war, has said "mistakes have been made" but that a "bigger mistake" would be for U.S. leadership "to lose its will."

"Senator Lieberman is right," Bush said.

Again you make my point, just because two people agree on a fact...does not imply they agree on all opinions. Where has russ ever said he hoped that al quida would win...or that he hopes america is attacked again...thats the smoking gun. Any other connection is opinion and not fact.

Exhibit 4

Osama – “However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy.”

Barney Frank (D-Mass.) concluded that "the time has come to get out" of Iraq.
you might as well add rummy as an al quida supporter too, hes said we need to bring our troop number down too. see this story http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...eld051223.html

But again, you make my point...we have two individuals who see this one specific situation alike, thats all you can conclude, if you conclud more...its an opinion and not a fact. Where can you quote barney as saying hes an al quida supporter?

Exhibit 5

Osama – “If you like, read the humanitarian reports on the atrocities and crimes in the prisons of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing.”

"Our nation will continue to be harmed by the reports of abuse of detainees in U.S. custody, the failure by top officials to take action, and the abandonment of our basic rules and traditions on human rights," he said. He even stooped to the moral-equivalence canard that some in the U.S. chose "to stoop to the level of the terrorists" and "deserve to be held fully accountable." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy, MA

Again, both individuals speak about the same set of facts and are in agreement on only that one very specific narrow issue. You should have also included mccain, on this one, as hes against human torture too, and actually the rest of the country as well.



This could get fun doing the Faux news smear, i seem to recall this quote from bush

'God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.'"


and hitler said

Who says I am not under the special protection of God?
- Adolf Hitler

Does this mean bush is hitlers identicle twin brother? some left wing hate groups would like the people to believe that, but i dont. But its the same Faux news smear, and although the quotes are accurate and in context, all that can be concluded is when it comes to this specific topic, it would appear that both bush and hilter agree on how god feels about themselves.

I could go on and on, and it could get pretty funny, or it could get pretty sad. Theres too much of this kind of false premise and false argument going on in american now...i dont need to add to it. (but it sure could be fun) im sure others could come up with some pretty good smears as well.

This took longer than i thought, ...im so used to copy and paste, i cant type very well.

Ron, enjoy whats left of the weekend, i got wheelers to work on. Im sorry about the slam on whining...that was childish on my part.

 

Honda,

One thing I didn't see in your response was your opinion of OBL regugitating what the democrats are saying about Bush and his policies. My point was not to say that democrats are enemies of America like OBL is. The point was to show that they are giving him all kinds of ammunition to work with and credibility to resonate with many Americans who breath what their party tells them to think. Even if OBL said all this stuff on his own without aligning himself with the comments of one of our major political parties, if the dems weren't saying these things to, OBL would have almost no idealogical supporters in America. As it is, there is close to 25% of the nation that despises Bush more than OBL.

This is why I believe during times of war when the dems square off with the President and seem to carry close to half the nation as constituency, whatever they say will be used against our efforts by the enemy. Terrorists thrive on making temporary alliances against a common enemy. Although in this case it is one sided..... I don't think the dems are aligning with OBL to fight Bush but OBL is obviously aligning with the dems and the credibility they bring to fight Bush politically. Bush is a common enemy to both the terrorists and the democrats. They both have ample dislike for him........

This is why I say that the people who are fighting Bush politically that are leaders in our country at this time are not helpful and counterproductive to the success of the war.

If this does not make sense to you, there is nothing I can do........ This is the best I can explain it and this is the point my comparison was driving to.

Stop making Bush and the Pentagon and NSA out to be the enemy. They are protecting us from those who want us dead. If you don't like Bush or his policies, that is fine. Keep that to your family and friends and vote accordingly. To those in the Senate and the media and the special interest groups...... stop fighting the president like he is the common enemy. Al Qeada and others are your common enemy that you should be aligning with Bush to defeat.

Don't bother formulating a time consuming response. As I said, if this seems wrong to you, just say so and I will know there is nothing I can do for you. I am old enough to remember how things were in times of war past. The only wars we ever lost were since public open debate was acceptable during times of war. This allowed political leverage and footing for our enemies to exploit which eventually permeated public support for enduring to victory. We saw it in Korea somewhat, we definately saw it in Nom and we are seeing it again taking place with the war on terror.

All you think about is your right to free speech. What so many forget is, unless we have resolve and unity enough to defeat those who threaten freedom, we will not have free speech for long. Look at your sig. Sometimes you have to stand with those you disagree with for a time against a greater danger to maintain the rights and freedom you desperately fight to keep and to fulfill your responsibility to pass this freedom on to your children.

Ron