OK. We're getting off the subject, which didn't have anything to do with land, trail or environmental issues in the first place.

Amazing that we got so worked up over this.

 

I enjoy discussing these things. I think you are right that we are a bit off track but indirectly the very different ideological basis for conservatism and liberalism is relevant to whether we are frightened by what the government is doing while fighting the war on terror in regard to our personal freedom or if we are understanding that some temporary sacrifice is necessary.

I believe some temporary sacrifice is necessary and I am not frightened because I trust the American people to reign government back in, again specifically concerning personal freedom, when the current security demand is no longer necessary. The liberal mindset that does not put its faith in the people and that relies on government to provide and control will always be more afraid of what government is doing because they over estimate the power the government has over the people and they under estimate how much power the people have over the government. Once in that mindset, I fully understand why some are frightened.

Ron

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

That's difficult when I look at massive average household credit card debt, negative personal savings, interest only home loans and watch that same general public support abnormal public debt based on deficit spending during a time of payment imbalance while giving up their personal liberties for a promise of safety. Not exactly a positive, strong character appearance of fiscal responsibility at personal and public levels. Or is that just another trashed conservative value unsuitable for the new Republican, former Southern Democrat lifestyle? I think most will fit right in with global redistribution of labor overhead as a service economy because all they seemingly need is someone else to blame for any adverse circumstance.

 

I dont fit any mold, and I try to not pigeon hole anyone, were all individuals. I dont vote any straight party line, i vote on the issues,.... as an american, not a dem or rep.

Im only blindly loyal to one , JC, and he deserves it.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged


I read the same stuff you do, but my take is somewhat different. I see it as setting the stage for some politician to propose laws controling the amount and kinds of debt that people can have. The intellectual elitists will be all for that, feeling that the government must take care of the dummies. They don't believe that market forces between lenders and borrowers have any role. They believe more government control is always the solution.

It seems to me that the values being trashed are those of personal privacy. That's something to be worried about as much as the government listening in on a peace activist meeting.

 

I've usually agreed with ds here, but this post is exactly how I feel. I voted for a rep. pres and dem. gov
Pres is with JC too

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: DSNUT
With all due respect, traditional conservatives have little faith in the general public. Those conservatives, and liberals, who pay the bulk of taxes willingly do so to maintain civil order and organization within the masses. The alternative is private protection from civil disorder when public food bowls are low, peaceful diversions limited and the highest rate of per-capita incarceration in the developed world occurs, as it has in the US. Start looking at where the wealth lives in most areas; it's not within the general population. As the general public becomes more demanding for wealth redistribution due to stagnant wages and inflation, they're much easier to lead using fear. Prosperity and fear being the two primary options for successful government.

The general public does not provide jobs, does not provide the bulk of tax revenue even though they're 90% of the population, do not offer political leadership but do furnish the bulk of cannon fodder and consume the majority of social services. That's not an elitist opinion, but simple demographics.

You and others, regardless of political viewpoints, remove yourself from general public status with your concern and sense of responsibility in discussing issues of importance to all Americans on a public forum. I do this because this is my country and I want my opinions known to others. We're my definition of concerned Americans, the general public being hooked on well designed and polished media news thinly sandwiched between entertainment and entertainment. Posting on Internet forums takes time, often provides those pesky opposite opinions and near rock bottom on the general public interest meter.

 

Thank you, I really appreciate someone noticed I am trying to keep things moving forward in a positive way.

Believe it or not out of several web discussions I have seen this one is seriously one of the best (and on an ATV site to boot, good going atvconnection!!) and the information being shared is posted in a way that most everyone should be able to follow along, and I also think the differences of opinions are evenly weighted so that there isnt any real "bullying" going on.

Good advise regardless of the topic!!

 

I cant argue with the starting thought of that since its obvious wiretaping etc is nothing new, and WTF did Jimbo Carter ever do for the US that beyond average at best. I agree he was and still is a likeable person, and seems to be good human being as well, but coming out just to "play politics" and bash the opposing party isnt doing anything positive for anyone.

Now I do have a problem with the whole liberal this and conservative that labels were so used to seeing. Maybe I am naive but I gave up on the the whole debate years ago after seeing all the flip flopping, labeling, and use of the terms so loosely that you didnt actually have any idea if a liberals views were even friggin liberal at all, and the same for so called conservatives.

I learned long ago that the only thing that was rock solid had nothing to do with the label of a persons views on being conservative or liberal, but everything to do with their current agenda (and that in politics means their partys agenda) So be it liberal or conservative I expect their views to change to match their needs, and the only thing missing from both sides is a committment to put the american people first on their agenda.

If I am missing something please explain, and if you think I am onto something please offer whatever you think may support it. As always I am open to another view.

 

Sorry but you cant just disreguard the opinion of a cabby [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

I have to admit I can understand how any person "not fond" of Jewish people in general could easily become mistaken to believe what your driver does, and without taking the time to disprove this (is it completely untrue anyway?) and just looking at the "pro Isreal" stance taken so often in the media, and by our politicians etc I am sure it would easilly sway the thinking of someone who is of a different thiking and background than the average american.

We all have our own ideas of just who is running the media, and I have a strong feeling most of us are wrong, and would be suprized to see just who is behind it (just like I doubt any of us have a good understanding of who is really running the white house etc) I honestly do not know for sure, and just to say "big" corporations isnt really enough as we need to know not only what corporations, but also who is of a majority ownership of them.

I am sure there is going to be jews, christians, budahs, and most other religions represented in some way, but I dont really care about their chosen religion personally and would be more interested in their citizenship and political affiliations.

While were at it why not figure out what political contributions were made by these corp's and the major shareholders, and i think that would be more helpful in understanding the possible bias in any reporting.

There is lots more to this than I think we know, but I dont have any sympathy for politicians since they are the ones who so quickly allowed mass ownership of media and sort of cooked their own goose.

Would you believe there are a string of almost 20 (could be more now) different papers, several radio stations and at least one cable/tv news station in the southern half of a small state like NJ all owned by the same corp? Its funny when they go obviously hunting for one party, and you remember this type of ownership wasnt even legal at one time before they the politicians changed the laws to satisfy their contributors.