Don't know that I would like to do that with 400lbs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Whoa there.. let's quantify that statement shall we... First off, I agree, you have riding conditions that are a natural for sport quads in SoCal. But what you are not saying is that you are talking about modified machines with wider that stock suspensions, and mods that bring them lower. You are NOT talking about stock machines here. I do not believe it.

Secondly, sure, a Ute that weighs twice the weight of the sport quad is going to sink in, or dig in depending on the surface. Sand is NO PLACE for a ute. Trying to turn one is like taking a gun and putting it to your head. Of course they flip over easily under those conditions. But you have to apply the correct machine charateristics to the riding conditions.

I do not think anyone is criticizing either model. What people are saying is true on both sides of the fence. It really comes down to the conditions of where you are riding to decide what to ride. I can set up a scenario just as easy that would make the Utes superior like riding in swamps, or deep mud, or certain mountain trails. Places where pure power is NOT going toe get you up the hill.

The point is moot, we are trying to compare apples and oranges. Both are fruit, and both taste good, but they don't taste alike.

I've rolled both. I admit it is harder to get out from under the Ute, but I don't ride it as agressively as I do my sport models either. I tailor the riding style and speed to the conditions.

 

I agree that there isnt any model type criticizing happening, and hope it stays that way. If we look at this with a combination of an open mind, all our experiences, and just some common sense I think we all can pretty much figure what all the potential recipies for disaster are, and also the many ways to help to avoid them.

Not sure if I mentioned this already but I remember how impressed I was watching a rider on a sportsman 700 (a pretty large and heavy ute) tearing up a mx track doing all the dbls and step ups etc, and I have seen enough different things on all different kinds of machines etc to understand in the right or even the wrong hands almost anything is possible.

Now I am not talking about the episodes that are totally out of the norm like an experienced rider who is safety minded getting into serious problems moving his machine off the trailer or having the ground below him give way on the edge of a drop off etc, but we need to concentrate on what would seem or appear to be the higher number of injury causing situations.

I know its hard to get a hold of specific info on the stats, but if say 90% of the serious or worse accidents involve new riders, or a large % involve double up riding, or no helmets etc these are the areas that need attention. If these include a higher % of sport machine or utes etc then these also would be the areas to concentrate on.

If used properly and by an experienced and able rider who uses common sense etc none of these machines were discussing should pose a problem on their own, but obviously just by the sheer stats alone when you remove the experience or worse the common sense etc there can be serious results.

Do these problems produce worse results for the injured rider on one model or the other? For now I think its more opinion based by all of us as far as our opinions go etc, but though I think we are all pretty close to being correct we really should be getting the data to prove our theory etc. IF then it is shown that by the stats that there is a higher percent of new inexperienced riders who are seriously injured on one type or another there would be specific cause to put attention in that area.

I do believe that just like the hours driven discussion on the previous stats in the thread there will be a larger amount of reports involving utes because they are more popular and have higher sales plus directly target less experienced riders, and purposely make the potential buyer falsely feel like they are safer and more stable, and you an not forget the weight issue as well.

Sure all things we do on any model or type of machine can produce an injury(ever hurt yourself on two wheels, or how about ten of them on those damn inline skates lol) but if we are going to be able to make a difference in combating those who are trying to close our sport down then we had better be able to immediately get past any brand or model type loyalties and get with identifying the problems and following a plan to correct them.

Does this make sense to you guys????

 

Amazing what a person can do with some adrenalin flowing

 

I think playing the numbers game can be fruitless. You can manipulate them to make any argument. For example you could simply count the crashes and declare Utes have more acidents. Totally ignoring that there are many more of them out there. You could look at the terrain they ride on too. I have seen some pretty narrow trails on the side of a mountain that is an open invitation to crashing. Same for trees.

I think if we really want to do something, clearly wider trails would help. Slower speeds would help. Lower center of gravity would help. Make the machines wider themselves would help... But you would get people crying that a safer trail would be boring. That less groud clearance would make them hang up, that wider machines couldn't fit in their pickup etc....

As far as the stats go, most occur when riders are operating their machines outside the CPSC guidelines. Now I am not saying that if they had been in compliance, that the kid still would not find a way to get hurt, but I have to believe in a significant amount of cases that involve two up riding, excessing speed, machines too big for a kid.. like a 7 year old ona 400 class machine etc... all could have changed if they had just thought about it. It isn't the quad that kills. It is the bad decisions. We all live and sometimes die by the decisions we make. I just wish the young ones could live until they are old enough to make good ones. We as parents can try to teach them common sense, but in some cases it isn't enough. ALl we can do at that point is give them good examples to learn from and hope they make it until they are at that point.

 

I think we could come up with so many ideas it would be tough to just pick a few, but thats sort of what I am thinking we will have to do if we can expect any of them to be adopted by anyone (the govt, the mfg, the riders or riders groups, the dealers etc etc etc).

I dont think some things will happen like making all trails like hiways, or making the mfg stop the size wars on the ute machines etc, but there have to be some we can all agree on.

The problems and the fixes I think that have the most potential as mentioned so far are:

The CPSC creating sensible guidlines for rider size and ability v/s machine and engine size. This will help to avoid the bad purchasing decisions for smaller riders etc, and eliminate much of the problems seen when having to make decisions outside of the now flawed guidelines.

Training or some basic rules or guidlines for dealers who sell new or even used units to make available not only the current info on training classes etc, but also being upfront and honest with customers about safety equipment, the proper sizing of machines to riders, the potential hazards, and just basically push safety and education as strongly as they do the machines themselves. A lot of the potential for reaching the rider is right at the point of sale, and its much more diffilcult for any club or assoc to reach them later, and often too late anyhow.

Since it seems most all agree that the overwhelming amount of serious injury and fatal crashes are the direct result of "stupidity" and uninformed or unwilling parents there is a need to get into their heads as well. It would seem some sort of required education or training for them is inline as well, and this is especially true for first time or new buyers. What about making it a requirement to purchase any model under a certain size (to be determined later) that the parent be educated in proper use and potential hazards etc. This could be in the form of a video, making safety training mandatory, requiring the parent and even rider of any age to attend a safety course, or some combo of these.

*****

These three are the ones I believe have the best chance of actually getting implemented and happening etc. Though there are other great ideas and even many that I share I just dont think they will fly. I doubt anything less than changes in buying habits will seriously effect the offerings fromthe mfg. I dont see licensing making any more of a diff than it has for normal drivers of cars etc, and I dont see much coming from trying to slow things down, or any of the others that take away from the fun aspect of the experience. I mean why ride if your not enjoying it etc.

I could be wrong or then again spot on, and its only another opinion anyhow, but we got to start someplace, and these seem like good ones etc. If you have others keep them coming, and if you dont think one of these is right or needs to be replaced lets hear it, but no matter what you think of each individual prospect lets hear what you think is a good way to get it to happen.

 

From the washington post

What ATV Rules Would -- and Would Not -- Accomplish

full story

 

Yup, the article, and the responses pretty much hit the nail on the head. I am quite surprised though, that the Washington Post actually printed the responses. They have a.. well let's say they have a well deserved reputation for extremist reporting. I fully agree with Mr. Bogart. The PARENTS are the ones here that fingers should be pointed at. Yes, they can make another one... I just hope they have their brains engaged next time.
Stupid people should NOT be allowed to breed.

 

OK.

I've just finished reading the 5 pages of previous replies to this thread. Many good ideas, mixed with a small percentage of BS just for good measure. While I have not yet formed an opinion or come up with the conclusive answer (as I'm not certain there is only one) to the question:

Quote:

"What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"

I have observed a few relevant things over the years.

After +20 years involved with local rescue services, first as a service provider and eventually as a rescue equipment distributor, about 9 years ago, through a friend I was introduced to the concept of "Farm and Home Safety Training." He had just been appointed to head up a new Kentucky Department of Agriculture state level program by the same name.

As a direct result of this program, "The annual number of non-ATV farm related deaths in Kentucky has been cut in half since 1995."

Before we celebrate, during most of that same period, Kentucky has led the nation in ATV fatalities.

Quote:

"The CPSC reported that Kentucky led the nation with 106 reported ATV-related deaths from 2002 to 2004. Also, Kentucky's ATV death rate grew faster than that of any other state during the period."

According to data from the Kentucky Department for Public Health (not the liberal media), the number of ATV-related deaths in Kentucky has doubled in the past five years (2000 through 2004).

Sadly, children, under age 16, have been involved in 26 percent of those ATV fatalities. Nationwide, youths under age 16 not only have one of the highest rates of ATV-related injuries, they are the victims in 34 percent of all ATV fatalities.

Need any more facts; we didn't. So, in 2005 the "Kentucky Farm and Home Safety Training Program" began to informally include an "ATV Safety and Rescue" segment in it's programs. With no specifically earmarked funding, the introduction was slow, but effective. So much so that in February 2006, Kentucky's State Agriculture Department Commissioner said:

"The Department is seeking $126,000 in state General Fund appropriations for its Farm and Home Safety Program for ATV Safety Education. Kentucky has suffered more from injuries and deaths in ATV accidents than any other state. Our 'ATV Safety Education' program would show people how they can minimize the risk of getting hurt, or worse, on their ATV's and still have fun. This program is well worth the modest investment we have asked for. "

Well, that's what the politicians heard. This is what I heard:

"If we can just reach the elementary school kids! At that age, they're still open to ideas of right and wrong. It's proven these kids will talk to their parents, and the message will spread. If we can get the message to them that ATV riding is both the most fun, and the most deadly thing you can do, maybe we can change the numbers; just like in the farm related deaths."

At this point, I have no numbers to quote; no dramatic drop in the ATV fatalities of children under the age of 16. You see, the proposed "ATV Educational Safety Program" was not funded for 2006. We may have to wait another year for that.

 

EEResQ

No matter if suffecient funding is in place or not that is some interesting and mostly good news. I mean if thru any program there could be similar success as that with the non atv farm equipment stats it would seem to be major accomplishment far as I can see.

Actually personally I like the whole idea, but do caution that attempting to reach school age kids thru the schools etc may not work as well in some areas outside KY.

I dont want to add any new lables to any groups etc, but the areas that are (like around here) under the control of a mostly liberal democrartic legislature will have a hard time getting anything like that to happen for a few reasons. One is that these types look at us as both the enemy and a source of income in general, two there are only so many hours avail to spread info to our children and this is currently very full of various mind controling propaganda like the war on drugs (have to keep the employment rate up somehow), and lastly a very conflicting false conditioning of how bad off the environment is with all the pollution, global warming, and atvs destroying our futures etc that would make inteligent discussion very diffilcult in some areas.

Not meaning to discredit your efforts in anyway, and I agree with you 110% and support your idea as it is a very good one, but also want to share what I believe would be the potential areas of resistance from those in power with their own conflicting agenda's or whatever.

I know in and around NJ there are many groups (some with more genuine intents than others) who have had access to the schools to present their message, and it seems to work very well so it would seem very much worth the effort even in those areas where there will be some resistance to it.