EEresQ--you certainly paint a grim picture of ATV accidents in your area. However, I would not be at all surprised that you could pick accidents involving conventional vehicles and come up with a worse picture. I read where 40,000 people a year die in crashes on our roads and highways. Our weekly newspaper reports a motor vehicle fatality in almost every issue, but I can't remember a single ATV fatality occuring on a road...and many townships in this area allow ATV's on town roads.

ATV's are like any other machine. You need to be sensible when operating them, or you are liable to get yourself killed.

 

Trouble is, it's not us that's getting killed. It's someone else's kids, or someone else who doesn't know much about a quad. Others have said it already - they look stable because they have four wheels and big tires, but they aren't. The very design features that make them so capable off road also make them tricky to operate.

Say what you will about Darwin weeding out the foolish, but if deaths keep rising, especially adolescent deaths, the government will step in. And we won't like what they will do. Imagine a huge roll cage - wouldn't that be a pretty sight? Maximum center of gravity. Weight and displacement limits lower than they are today. Higher prices, too - we'll all be riding small Rhinos if the feds step in. Given the size/displacement wars today, we may want tighter limits - you want to meet a 1000cc/1000 pound quad on the trail coming the other way, with a newbie riding it? Sort of like driving in the city, with a 14 year old behind the wheel of a Lincoln Navigator coming at you.

We're sort of caught between a rock and a hard place. The mass marketing of quads has yielded rich benefits for us all - they're getting better, more capable every year, but the price isn't rising as much because so many more are being sold. The downside to this is a lot of inexperienced people, with visions of those glitzy ads, are buying them. And getting hurt.

Typical case - a friend's father in law buys a hilly piece of land to retire on. Decides he wants a quad, and going with the 'bigger is better' marketing, gets a Grizzly. Okay, I'm impressed. But he knows nothing about them, and the griz can be a handful. So I said - tell him to watch out, that thing is big and heavy, and it can roll over. And it's going to really hurt if it does.

Three weeks later, he tries to take on a hillclimb, just like in the TV ads. Unlike the TV ads, he commits the cardinal sin of hillclimbing - he hesitates halfway up. Stops, and then tries to turn around. Over it goes - they didn't show that part in the ad. He got off easy, only broke a leg. Had to crawl almost a mile back to his house, neighbor found him in the yard the next morning. He's lucky to be alive. You'd think the warnings and the stickers would have been a clue - I almost got writer's cramp from signing all the legal forms the last time I bought a new quad. But, apparently not.

So, along with teenagers riding on pavement, there's your other big problem - the person hyped up on those fancy ads. Those spots get us lower prices from volume sales, but they're bringing in an inexperienced crowd. The manufacturers won't help - they're too busy making them bigger and heavier so you'll buy next year's model. If one does it, they all do it.

It's time to bring some sense to this, before the feds do it for us.

 

Great just great pick on the grizzly in your post..

Just great lets ban everything then, and over regulate everything so any and all outdoor sports and recreation is either banned or costs so much the average citizen in the USA can not afford it.

What ever happened to personal responsibility? You buy your ATV, you break your leg riding it outside of it's intended use, then you are personally responsible for your actions, same goes for you letting someone ride your atv, and them not using it for its intended use too?

Same goes for all parents and guardians of children, you buy them a atv to use, and you do not supervise them every time they use the atv you bought, and they get injured or worst, you should be held responsible for your actions?

Why does most think it is the wasteful governments duty to watch how you use your atv and then be responsible when you do not use the atv as intended and get injured you blame everyone but yourself?

These are the real issues here. The answer is not to have the wasteful government over tax the use of, over regulate the manufacture of, limit the use of, ban the sale of atv's and orv's, just because some of you do not take personal responsibility for your actions.


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Quote:

Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?

While we may have traveled a bit off trail as it pertains to the original subject of this thread, 440EX026 ask two good questions here.

FIRST:
"Stupid Kills?"
Well, does it? I believe it does, and my proof is found the five articles posted above; along with hundreds of others we've all read. Can we cure 'Stupid'? I seriously doubt it. Can we lessen the impact of 'Stupid' through mandatory ATV Safety Education for ALL operators; especially those observed operating in a reckless manor? Yes, but only to the degree that 'Stupid' is willing to accept the potential for injury or death related to unsafe operation of ATV's. As Ron White says:
"You can't fix Stupid!"

SECOND:
"What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"
So far, we've heard almost as much about what we don't want done, as we have about what we can do. This isn't about any government conspiracy to take away our rights, or our ATV's. While no one wants more government regulation, that may just be what is required. However, before we endorse a stack of new ATV laws, fees and responsibilities of ownership, let's take a look at what's already on the books, but seldom enforced.

Rather than cut-n-paste the entire list, here's a link to Kentucky ATV laws and regulations already enacted.
Kentucky's All-Terrain Vehicle (ATV) Laws

I use this list as it's a fair representation of a "middle of the road" approach to the problem. Please click on the link and read the list. It may surprise many of you that almost everything we have brought up is already on the books; except one.

 

Wow the exception always seems to be fixing "stupid".

I agree it really can not be done, but like stated earlier there may be a chance to help some at least if they bother to pay attention.


In regard to the current listed regulations in KY my first thought is that some of these are way too restrictive for the conditions that exist, and therefore will most likely not be doing anyone any good and maybe even adding to the problem. These conditions are 14 yr olds that are over 6' and 200lbs being legislated into riding a way too small machine, making criminals of those riding on any road in any area no matter the purpose, or being totally rural untraved roads or whatever.

Even here in the extremely over populated little state of NJ they have DOT rulings allowing the use of non hiway roads for crossing at a 90 or riding alongside for access to the trail or continuation etc. I know most all of the officers here have no idea of this and will most likely stop you or worse (expect a ticket or tow and impound) but its still a legal action in the end.

I know from my traveling around that there are some areas where there is no way I would ever even consider riding on the roads or agreeing that it should be legal, but when your talking about a rural road where there are limited amounts of vehicle traffic etc it makes no more sense to criminalize the rider for using it "inteligently".

Reason I am picking this to comment on is that I know there have been cases where riders have been injured fleeing the law, and creating the potential for increasing this for no good reason or purpose doesnt thrill me. Maybe its just part of my experience here where things have gotten out of control, but after being pursued in similar fashion to someone who had committed a serious felony only for riding on a trail in the damn forrest I have direct experience in just how bad or out of control things can get.

One thing to remember is that what is honestly needed for things to work right will differ from area to area. In places like NJ or other highly populated centers there is an honest problem with access to legal areas to ride, and creating still penalties for private property or public property riding without addressing the access issue is only going to increase problems because there is no place to operate legally.

Around here $1,000 fines, min impound times creating $300-1,000 fees, bogus court costs approaching $100-300, and many municipal level confiscation laws discussions is not making it easier for anyone, and you can actually rationalize the possible benefit to fleeing and its potential legal issues and costs. Now consider the added potential for injury if this happens accross the country and every single rider (especially those younger ones with less thoughts about outcomes beyond getting grounded for hooking themselves up with a couple grand in fines) is making the wrong choice. Its not working here, and I can not see how it would anyware else either unless there is a sensible and suitable plan that allows all access to a convenient, suffecient and affordable legal place to use these things.

***********

I understand everyone who is commenting on increased goverment regulation, and also understand why some may think this may in some way actually help things long term for us all, but from everything I have witnessed during my lifetime all these increases have done is create useless agencies and additional tax burdens on us all while normally totally screwing up what they intended to fix.

I know we are most likely going to have to endure some kind of increased govermental involvement in the furure, but I advise everyone to be very cautious to what they claim to want or agree with on this as this is something that if done improperly as it normally is can completely change the face of our entire sport or even destroy it.

This is why I support education, and maybe even mandatory education and training for riders. I dont support licensing due to how poorly it has worked for other issues, but would be open to a change of thinking if there was some other positive things involved like using all the fees to create, maintain and support legal trails systems etc.

There has to be changes that make sense to all etc.

 

I would debate the idea of the amount of serious or fatal injuries by thrill seeker type riders as I honestly dont believe the racer or freestyle types are honstly a big percentage at all. I know there are many non life threatening injuries at mx tracks accross the country all the time, but due to the organization of most of the locations, the popular use of most all safety gear, and ultimately the norm of more experienced riders and better equiped modified machines etc there are just fewer of the ones were trying to put an end to.

I do agree that not all atv's are the same when used on dry pavement, and have even seen fairly large differences not only between the machines I have owned, but even the same ones when equiped or set up differently.

Just a change in tire type, air pressure, suspension, or something as simple as toe in can make for a very different handling machine, and this is obviously more noticable on pavement than dirt.

Still I dont think there is a need to have legal use of roads beyond accessing trails or trail heads etc, and just using your atv as a car isnt the smartest thing either.

Like I said earlier the location, volume of traffic, and type of road should dictate use or access, and not just some wide focused legal ruling that paints everything the same.

 

I have to agree with that, but some might benefit from some kind of atv riding safety course.
IMO about all the community can do too, is try to get all new to atv's to take a atv riding safety course.
Plus some kind of atv safety patrols might help as well.



If you care to, look at the laws in Michigan http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/


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Does anyone think we're going to change the attitudes toward ATV Safety of the persons responsible for this video clip?

ATV Dare Devil Wheelie on 2-Lane Highway

As for serious injuries or fatalities at organized ATV or MX events:

See real FEAR in the faces of these kids and hear their PAIN

Any wonder why the numbers are what they are today?

The Pro Riders have a hard enough time maintaining control at the "Shootouts" and "Hare Scrambles" every weekend. Not to mention the want-a-bee Darwin Award winners with a BobCat front-end loader parked in the buffer zone next to the homemade ramp. When Lil' Bubba gets home and tries out what he watched the big boys do... tragedy strikes!

I pick on "Lil' Bubba" as he is my child size rescue training manikin. Children are facinated with this life sized doll. We use him to get the point across to kids that:

"ATV's are both the most FUN and the most DANGEROUS things you can ride today!"

It's at his age, 6 through 12 years old, where we will do the most good. Once they experience the adrenaline rush of these stunts, it's probably too late.

Here's a picture of "Lil' Bubba" at work.

Photo of "Lil' Bubba" at work.
I have not been able to get this link to work so here's the URL: http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2...99684271vdxFng
Cut-and-paste to your browzer.

 

d-laker, I think you know what I mean. guys blasting down asphalt roads where the traction is way more than the ATV was designed to handle.
---------------------
I think one point that may be a possible cause, is parents making bad mis-informed decisions for their children. Now I know there are kids out there screaming for an ATV. But I wonder home many are "Pushed" in this direction by over zealous parents who legitimately want to share an experience with their kids. But they do not do a very good job of measuring their kids skill levels, their maturity etc.

Even more a possibility is the parent who knows little or nothing about ATV's, but think it would be great to get one for their child. I mean, you can buy one on every corner it seems these days, they must be safe right? The Chinese manufacturers have NOT spent a great deal of time in their sales liturature over this concern either. They DO NOT subscribe to the voluntary compliance with the CPSC guidelines either.

Then there are the grand parents etc... All solveble with a little more education for the parents or others making the purchase. Some sort of booklet for Pete's sake.. Scare the heck out of them. Make them sign a form that they read it and mail it in somewhere. Do something to make sure they make an INFORMED decision.

Most importantly, just love your kids. If your assessment results in the decision that they are just not ready for an ATV, then love them enough to say no. It is that simple. Don't assume they will GROW into it. Be honest with yourself and your child. Be the parent. We all know how tough it is to say no. I have over the years been specializing in training kids. Believe me, the number of children under 10 that are honestly ready for them is very low in percentage compared to the ones that are not. As a parent, we all want to think our kid is better than all the rest. That isn't true folks. That is why most kids are AVERAGE. And why so many more fall below that line. We have to stop kidding ourselves and stop pushing our brand of fun on the children.

Let them grow up at their own rate. You have plenty of time to enjoy them...

 

Got this in my morning email alerts. It describes what our neighbors north of the border are doing to reduce the number of serious injuries to kids who ride ATV's.



THE ROAD TO ATV SAFETY
Experts give students tips on proper ATV operation.

By BRIAN MEDEL, Yarmouth Bureau
The Chronicle Herald
ChronicleHerald.ca

BARRINGTON

Nova Scotia school kids learn how to get out of burning buildings by having fire drills.

Students in some Shelburne County schools have also received a little ATV safety training to help
them make the right decisions after school.

At a Woods Harbour elementary school, only one child claimed not to own or have access to an ATV,
safety instructor Carla Smith recalled of one of the first times she gave her ATV talk.

"There was a young boy hurt in Woods Harbour (in an ATV accident) and one of the schools asked us
if we'd come up and put on a bit of a safety thing," she said Tuesday. That was back in 2000. Safety
demonstrations have taken place since then in a couple of other elementary schools in the county.

"We pass helmets around and actually teach the kids how to fasten a helmet up," said Ms. Smith.

"We bring an ATV in and give them some safety tips."

The RCMP will often come and talk to the kids at the same time, she said, adding that students get
to know the police that way. "Because so many kids in this area run from them . . . and that is where
you're going to get kids killed," she said of young ATV riders trying to escape from the police.

Ms. Smith is a Canada Safety Council-trained ATV riding instructor who also teaches safety courses
for all age groups.

She presents a six-to eight-hour course, usually in a day, and kids as young as six take the training.

The law says children from six to 12 may ride a machine provided they are supervised and that the ATV
they ride doesn't have an engine bigger than 70 cc. From 12 to 16, the machine must be 90 cc or less,
and after 16 the sky's the limit.

Ms. Smith puts her students through 21 exercises, most of them on a closed course near Clyde River.
Safety gear, weather and environmentally sensitive areas are all covered in the instruction. She encourages
students to expect what could happen in the field and then act accordingly.

The words to remember are scan, identify, predict, decide and execute.

"That is the general rule of thumb when riding an ATV," she said. "Scan the area. Identify what dangers are
out there. Predict what could happen if you chose that path then make the decision and Execute it."

"The main thing I've learned is that if kids are taught safe riding at a young age it sticks with them," she said.

Drug and alcohol impairment is discussed and riding double is a big deal. "Its illegal unless you have an ATV
that's built to carry two people."

In addition to registration and insurance documents, ATV riders will have to carry a safety training wallet card.

BRIAN MEDEL
The Chronicle Herald
ChronicleHerald.ca


It appears our north of the border neighbors are drawing the same conclusions as many of us have concerning the need for ATV Safety Education at an early age.