Come on BB, you know very well what I am talking about. I don't need ot explain it. I am tired of you and Muddy hijacking every thread you come accross that has more than 50 views ot continue your ongoing tit for tat. Although we all share the same gripes, the constant in your face whining over spilled milk isn't going anywhere. Not one constructive comment has come out of it.

We know that the machines are in need of some improvements. Wider equals safer. We all know that. The problem really revolves aroud the CPSC guidelines that are outdated, and are bing used as the basis for riding programs by states. SOme are being more proactive, but most are taking them at face value and using them to build their program around. It is simple economics. They don't have ot spent any time or money re-creating the wheel, or even understanding the problem. You get people like yourself complaining and all they do is point the finger back and say well, look, I have a program, isn't that enough? Well, no it isn't. We all know that.
My bottom line here is that your motives and way of bitching all the time is tiresome and does not add to the conversation. All it does is drive people away from what could be constructive commentary. I give up... and do what a lot of people are doing on lists like this... finding other things to do with my time.

 

Here's the watered down version of what was passed by Kentucky's legislature in 2006 with my personal commentary on each highlighted in bold italicized text below.


KENTUCKY's ALL-TERRAIN VEHICLE (ATV) LAWS


An all-terrain vehicle cannot be operated on any public highway, roadway or right-of-way of any public highway or roadway.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



An all-terrain vehicle cannot be operated on private property without the consent of the landowner, tenant, or individual responsible for the property.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



An all-terrain vehicle cannot be operated on public property unless the governmental agency responsible for the property has approved the use of all-terrain vehicles.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



Except for vehicles authorized to operate on a public highway, a person operating an all-terrain vehicle on public property must wear approved protective headgear, prescribed by the secretary of the Transportation Cabinet, at all times that the vehicle is in motion. The approved headgear requirement does not apply when the operator of any all-terrain vehicle is engaged in:

(1) Farm or agriculture related activities;
(2) Mining or mining exploration activities;
(3) Logging activities;
(4) Any other business, commercial, or industrial activity; or
(5) Use of that vehicle on private property.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



A person under the age of sixteen (16) years must not operate an all-terrain vehicle with an engine size exceeding ninety (90) cubic centimeters displacement, and cannot operate an all-terrain vehicle unless under direct parental supervision.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



A person under the age of twelve (12) years cannot operate an all-terrain vehicle with an engine size exceeding seventy (70) cubic centimeters displacement.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



A person may operate an all-terrain vehicle on any two (2) lane public highway in order to cross the highway. In crossing the highway under this paragraph, the operator must cross the highway at as close to a ninety (90) degree angle as is practical and safe, and cannot travel on the highway for more than two-tenths (2/10) of a mile.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!


(1) The Transportation Cabinet may designate, and a city or county government may designate, those public highways, segments of public highways, and adjoining rights-of-way of public highways under its jurisdiction where all-terrain vehicles that are prohibited may be operated.

(2) A person operating an all-terrain vehicle on a public highway under this subsection must possess a valid operator's license.

(3) A person operating an all-terrain vehicle on a public highway under this subsection must comply with all applicable traffic regulations.

(4) A person cannot operate an all-terrain vehicle under this subsection unless the all-terrain vehicle has at least one headlight and two taillights, which must be illuminated at all times the vehicle is in operation.

(5) A person operating an all-terrain vehicle under this subsection must restrict the operation to daylight hours, except when engaged in snow removal.

However, I have yet to met a police officer, sheriff's deputy, park / forest ranger or state trooper who will enforce this provision in Eastern Kentucky, the most deadly region in the country for ATV accidents!



Division of Driver Safety
200 Mero Street, Station W3-22-01
Frankfort, Kentucky 40622
1-502-564-1438
1-888-374-8768
For Information or Questions Email Us.
Drive Smart Webmaster
Email: erin.eggen@ky.gov


Anyone else here who has picked up on the pattern yet!


BTW:

ATV DEATHS ON RISE IN KENTUCKY

"STATE IS # 1 IN FATAL ATV WRECKS"
June 1, 2007

CLICK here for "Off-Road Rescue Team News" at www.EEResQ.com

 

[q]Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"....Come on BB, you know very well what I am talking about. I don't need ot explain it...."

No, I do think you need to explain yourself, DB; as you seemingly like to speak in wide generalities (I'll call it the "koombaya syndrome) while I'm out here giving specific examples on the subject at hand and relating the real-life political incidents that got us all here in the first place.
Sorry, bub; but I've gone toe to toe with these jerks who have ignored all these calls for improving safety and by gosh called them on it. If that kind of 'stand up like a man' vs 'let's all hold hands and just talk about it for a couple more years' approach bothers you....so be it.

".... I am tired of you and Muddy hijacking every thread you come accross that has more than 50 views ot continue your ongoing tit for tat. Although we all share the same gripes, the constant in your face whining over spilled milk isn't going anywhere. Not one constructive comment has come out of it...."

I don't know what trail sytem you're referring to when you speak from experience, DB; but we're out here on the political front lines of the largest damn maintained trail system in this nation. Safety-related issues have dominated the workings of this system like no other in this country in recent history. I'm here trying to integrate my experience and perspective on this mess into this conversation If you or Muddy wants to attack me for teliing the truth...so be it. My only satisfaction seems to lie in the fact that neither one of you appears willing to deny a word of it...and that frankl;y tells this readership a lot about how screwed up this community has actually become

"...We know that the machines are in need of some improvements. Wider equals safer. We all know that. The problem really revolves aroud the CPSC guidelines that are outdated, and are bing used as the basis for riding programs by states...."

C'mon, DB!!!
Do you just choose to 'simplify' everything?!
How about orv leadership getting their crap together and working WITH the CPSC to have solved all of this twenty years ago?
For pete's sake, when they met with us in WV a few years back....as that's where all the kids were getting slaughtered at that point in time..we couldn't even put a signed petition together from the community that had the word HELMET in it!
Kids are getting killed, injured and maimed because the CPSC guidelines are outdated(?)....or is it simply because our own leaders don't have the guts to go into certain areas of this country and lose membership money when they alienate a good share of these people with the cold hard truth?

"...My bottom line here is that your motives and way of bitching all the time is tiresome and does not add to the conversation. All it does is drive people away from what could be constructive commentary. I give up... and do what a lot of people are doing on lists like this... finding other things to do with my time...."


I'm out here saying what needs to be said on these topics because frankly, DB...you <u>won't</u>.
It seems that you cannot point to one individual or group that is even PARTLY responsible for the mess that we find ourself in today....while I seem willing to simply chronicle this whole mess so that we never repeat this leadershp-less fiasco for the sake of our kids.

And what are our kids intently learning from this now 'one-way' conversation, DB?

That we should all stand on the side of always being 'positive' while this bogus house of cards literally falls down all around us or that it's always a good time to pack up the tent and leave for the sake of their oh-so fragile feelings ever being affected?

As I've said before; the only ones out there truly understanding this subject are the parents of these kids who've had the issue hit them literally like a freight train right out of the blue. I suppose that they'd like to look at all of this 'positively' also...yet I'm guessing that a dose of reality-based observations hits a bit closer to home than maybe yours (no offense).

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ


Anyone else here who has picked up on the pattern yet!

BTW:

ATV DEATHS ON RISE IN KENTUCKY


"STATE IS # 1 IN FATAL ATV WRECKS"

June 1, 2007

CLICK here for "Off-Road Rescue Team News" at www.EEResQ.com</end quote></div>

Thanks for the first honest post that I've witnessed in literally years regarding this subject.

If anybody believes that the orv leaders you send your check into every year get involved in these matters any more than the LEs out there NOT given any kind of funding or mandate to sqaush this modeled behavior....they are kidding themselves.

Nobody that has been following this explosion of use in eastern KY is surprised at these figures. A few of us were even allowed on the KYforums website (briefly) before this area opened up and tried to talk about the huge responsibility they were about to take on; along with just how things were done elsewhere to prevent exactly this from happening less often.

And your so-called orv leaders pressed to publicly comment on the developing situation both there and in other safety-free zones like Windrock at the time?

As DB says.....they were both 'positive' that the situation would not turn any worse than it already was with thousands more riders well on their way to the area....and encouraged to nastily go on the offensive against any and all who 'dared' breach this taboo "by gosh we'll do whatever in the hell we want to" subject in the first place.

Again, the lack of stones or any stomach to fight for what's right in the general atv community has driven a LOT of people from ever again becomming involved in it....and I'm certain to be one of them after finally hearing this.

Thanks for being one of the few out there willing to simply speak your peace about this subject.

 

A quick story about one of those high profile national atv leaders who continually stuck their head in the sand at that time:

I called the office years ago to talk exactly about just what we have been disciusiing above and offer some help. My idea was to finally show the folks at Windrock not having the guts or character to model proper behavior for children around them that this was indeed flat out appalling and <u>not</u> supported anywhere else in the country save that regional area.
We'd go to this place and witness 6-7 year old kids at well attended events with thousands of people around....doubled up on youth quads with no helmets givng 'er hell up the mountainside with nary a parent around for literally miles.(and believe me, the adults were no better).

My suggestion was to help this so-called 'leader' man a booth at one of these events with his orv group's name on it that didn't just promote safety....but called for the type of rules to be immediately implimented at this private venue that would finally stop this kind of crap forever. These orv leaders have had absolutely no problem promoting these kind of places in their newsletters...but they sure as heck weren't ready to talk about exactly what you and your family would be exposed to when you got there.

I don't have to tell you how quickly he avoided my offer and tried to change the subject; yet what he hit me with next told the entire story.

The next thing you know; he was trying to blow smoke up my **** about almost 50% of us out here actually being 'hunters' who (and he couldn't have been more condescending when he said it) "actually".... didn't need helmets in the first place!
To further monopolize the conversation ( a favorite tactic of these guys just before they start attacking you for 'daring' to question their cozy little do-nothing 'non-profit' orv careers) he started in that 'his' solution was to carry around a hundy in his pocket to anyone catching him (and him only) without his helmet on!

Again, this is who our leadership has been while these Appalchian states have led the way in youth atv deaths over the years. I'm not making the point that any of these guys were directly responsible for these injuries...just that when the time came to stand up like a man (or woman) on these particular issues or many others involving pay-to-play or the responsible maintenance-basedf caretaking of our resources (actions that would have taken a big chunk out of their membership money each year for 'upsetting' the lowest common denominator safety-less "I've done my part by just giving to you" types keeping a roof over these leader's heads)....they wanted absolutely no part of it.

Standing up for what's right doesn't make you any friends, folks...and in the case of our community; it has been the single biggest factor in our demise bar none.

Which is exactly why many orv leaders both locally and nationally are now calling for us to simply gather around by the campfire or 'hold hands'....and by the way, send that check into us post haste; as we had absolutely nothing to do with the huge mess that we all find ourselves in today.
In my opinon, there needs to be a major housecleaning involving these arrogant leaders and a truly united multi-use trail oriented group formed under the same organizational roof. These guys failed miserably to get the job done through catering to the lowest common denominator among us and I'd like to see a group formed that one could actually be proud of and far more open to public scrutiny than these people have 'allowed' in the past.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: blackballed
Thanks for the first honest post that I've witnessed in literally years regarding this subject...

Thanks for being one of the few out there willing to simply speak your peace about this subject...</end quote></div>

BB,

Thank you for the compliments. However, this topic was started (this time around) on January 1, 2007 by 440EX026 and has since compiled 245 replies. IMHO many, if not most, replies to this topic have been both honest and forthright concerning the original question:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Many good ideas have been presented by several contributors over the last six plus months. While I didn't join until February, I did read the 5 pages of previous replies before posting a reply of my own. Admittedly it will be time consuming, however you may wish to glance over the earlier replies before condemning the contributors here. If I thought for a minute that this forum was a gathering of "kumbaya syndrome" types, I wouldn't have wasted my time here. The opinions and ideas posted by DB, 440EX and others are valid; as are many of yours. That stated, why are you climbing all over them for expressing their views?

BTW, I too am a "nose-to-nose & toes-to-toes" personality type, when the situation calls for it. But, this forum is not the place for that kind of in-your-face behavior. And, it doesn't play well during legislative sessions which is where this fight needs to continue. Not necessarily for more laws, but for some enforcement teeth behind laws already on the books!

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
"...(BB)you may wish to glance over the earlier replies before condemning the contributors here...."

I have witnessed only two posters on this thread condemn another for their opinion.
One (Muddy) decided that insulting and unprovoked personal attacks were in order (something you seem to have glanced over)...
...while the other (Dragginbut) recently posted the following;

"...I am tired of you and Muddy hijacking every thread you come accross ...the constant in your face whining over spilled milk isn't going anywhere. Not one constructive comment has come out of it....My bottom line here is that your motives and way of bitching all the time is tiresome and does not add to the conversation. All it does is drive people away..."

...which certainly makes one wonder why you would claim the following:

"...The opinions and ideas posted by DB, ...are valid;...why are you climbing all over them for expressing their views?..."

I've never really agreed that different rules of engagement for others not willing to point out the obvious was helpful.
Furthermore, I have brought up quite a few subjects relating to these safety-related issues that sure as heck weren't being talked about in the previous months since.
If you or anybody else up here believes any of these facts to be incorrect... then please do correct me just as soon as possible.
I'm approaching 9 years now asking many of the tougher questions that few in thios community seem willing to ask...and frankly, I'd like to know why there hasn't been any kind of factual challenge to date over this myriad of revelationse...only grumblings and personal attacks over somebody finally saying what needs to be said while you obviously post the statistics to prove it.(you want the Kentucky death stats published and then the entire issue focused much more widely....while several years ago I was point blank asking these same orv leaders what in the heck they were going to do specifically about KY, WV AND TN before you see the pressure being put on today...so, your'e right...my simply replying like a bobblehead with no real-life experience would've added much more to the conversation).

"...BTW, I too am a "nose-to-nose & toes-to-toes" personality type, when the situation calls for it. But, this forum is not the place for that kind of in-your-face behavior....."

I post facts, my friend....period.
Again, if the thoughts expressed here are by any means not true or factual in nature...please tell me so.
We're up here talking about kids becomming maimed for life and killed in a so-called community that obviously can't even get it's crap together enough to make a dent in it....and you're up here along with DB reminding me to be "politicallty correct' about this ongoing carnage while our local orv leaders deny any responsibility for acting like a man in these areas lacking no strong leadership in the first place.
Where would you like the truth to be told, my friend(?)....in yet another non-effective non-profit conference on safety....or does your following insistence even throw THAT venue out the window?

".... And, it doesn't play well during legislative sessions which is where this fight needs to continue...."

So in other words, don't talk 'like a man' about our kids being killed and mained up here on the internet....and certainly don't bring your "I've had enough" attitude to your local legislative seesion....where these orv so-called eaders are preparing the same damn non-commital 'pc' message that we witnessed years ago and that I have described in detail (once again) above.

I think an older Jewish woman named Dr. Laura may have nailed it best when she spoke of how nobody wants to stand up for anything anymore; hurt anybody's feelings or make only decisions based on what is truly the best for our children (her opinion seems to be that this just makes life one heck of a lot easier).

The next time you or DB read about a kid dying in this sport that the two of you are obviously so worried that the community talk 'correctly' about....maybe take the time to give that little Jewish woman a thought or listen, would you?

 

BB,

OK. So now you're going to go off on me. Go ahead; I can take whatever you can dish out. But, as you do so remember this, your behavior is not that of "A MAN" as you boast in your diatribes. You, in fact, are acting like an angry teenage boy. One who is powerless to change what he doesn't like about the world around him. So, he rants and raves to anyone who will listen. Well BB, have you noticed that not many are listening to you. Especially anyone with the power to effect change in the statistics which are the subject of this topic.

Your anger toward "nonprofit ORV leaders" is grossly misdirected. Ignor them. They are as powerless collectively, as you are individually, with your anger clouding the issue.

Legislative change comes slowly in a democratic society. But, when the cause it right, it eventually comes around. As proof, pressure from truely concerned citizens has resulted in the stiffening of ATV ridership laws in several states over the years. While still a long way from a solution, it's a start. These changes had nothing to do with you getting in the face of anyone. In fact, behavior such as yours, works against the cause for ACTIONS that serve to reduce the numbers of serious injuries to kids resulting from a "recreational" activity. In other words, your "SMACK TALK" is part of the problem, not part of a solution.

If you want to have a positive effect on the problem, contact your "local State Representative" -- not your "local ORV leader."

 

EEResQ, congratulations!! You see right thru BB's banter. Im not sure how he(BB) got un banned here. however, know hes being watched and so are everyone who exchanges with him. Cut him some slack as he has been pissed about this for a very long time. Basically dont let him get the best of you and end up being banned yourself. his time is coming....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: mywifesquad

"..his time is coming....[img][/img]</end quote></div>

...and so will yours, my friend. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]