MOUNTAIN FIREFIGHTERS ASSOCIATION
29th Annual Regional Fire - Rescue School

AUGUST 25th & 26th, 2007

State Fire Rescue Training
45 Gorman Hollow Road
Hazard, KY 41701

Email: sfrt12@alltel.net

CLASS 15:
ATV SAFETY DRIVING COURSE with RESCUE

This is a 2 day, 16 hour, course offered on Saturday and Sunday. The ATV Safety Program will be incorporated into this class and covers all safety aspects, plus laws pertaining to ATV operation. Use of ATV's and UTV's during off-road search and rescue operations will be included. Helmets, eye protection, and boots required. Bring your own ATV's or UTV's.

Instructors: Kentucky Department of Agriculture, Farm and Home Safety Training Program

 

I have multiple so called dealers in my neighborhood selling cars, auto parts, and ATV's. I stopped by the other day to talk to one so called "dealer" and asked him about safety, training availability etc... the guy was clueless. "oh yeah they are real safe" was his reply. When I asked him about all the statistics online about kids getting hurt or killed etc he sort of shut up and asked me to leave. As I was leaving, I asked him if he was selling any safety equipment or giving away a helmet etc with each sale, and he stomped back into his sales office and slammed the door. I think HERE is somewhere that the polititions can get involved. Let's get rid of these fly by night know nothings that only want to make a buck and who don't care about the kids they may be killing... As for safety equipment.... I hear complaints that it is too expensive etc. Well, my thoughts are if you can't buy your kid a helmet, or can't spend time making sure the kids are taught the correct way to ride or make sure they are following your instructions, then don't buy an ATV for them. It is that simple. I have said it before, I'll say it again. ATV's make a bad example for a babysitter. And Kids deserve thoughtful and informed parents to make the decisons.. Not the other way around.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"...I have multiple so called dealers in my neighborhood selling cars, auto parts, and ATV's. I stopped by the other day to talk to one so called "dealer" and asked him about safety, training availability etc... the guy was clueless.."</end quote></div>

Muddy and I put on a couple of safety training classes in this area several years ago and got pretty much the same reaction. (my present dealer was one of few exceptions and gave us a youth quad on loan).

Again, we can talk about this problem and beat it to death up here on the net...or simply force the people who lead us to actually publish the same results you and I both experience in every single orv publication out there.(both on-line and in print).

Everybody out there demands that our leaders continually paint the orv community and of course the dealers; manufacturers and most importantly orv leadership as doing "everything we can" to keep kids safe and that we're all (by gosh) sticking up for safety in every corner of this country with a zero tolerance policy.

Obviously, this has been all nothing but a big lie over the years and there are but a few of us out here willing to cite the sordid history required....to prove it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

I have to agree with you on that one. I am tired of being "blue in the face" over it... that is for sure....
I don't think it is even an issue of knowing what it takes to make things right any more. The manufacturers know what they need to change to make them safer, but they don't. Trail builders know what it takes to make them safer, but they don't. Lawmakers know what changes could be applied constructively, but they don't... I guess it comes down to each parent doing the right thing.... but they don't.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I don't think it is even an issue of knowing what it takes to make things right any more.."</end quote></div>

Agreed.
It has simply become an issue or attitude of "zero tolerance" that all legitimate communities have been forced to take; regardless of what profit or non-profit 'career' path that their suppliers and leadership has subscribed to for frankly their own benefit.

Nobody is making money keeping kids safe....and I'd like to see Muddy and the many other quality/passionate trainers out there make a decent living out of it.

Yet if you don't combine true pay-to-play with the above mentioned zero tolerance policies (drinking incl.; as the sledders were finally forced to adopt) and have this edict shouted from the rooftops by every major orv leader out there regardless of the paying membership that they would certainly lose...we'll continue to be be led by those wishing to play both sides of these 'no-brainer' issues for strictly their own benefit; under many different roofs; with absolutely no power or (IMO) true respectability gained.

 

Here's a scary trend...

Over the last 7 days, two boys, one 11-years-old, the other 13-years-old, have been killed when the 3-Wheeled ATV's they were riding fliped over on them.

The 13-year-old was killed outside the small town of Day, New York.

The 11-year-old was killed on a dirt road outside of Covington, Ohio.

I'll add more as I find it.

 

There have been enough ideas posted here. What is everyone doing to effect change?

 

I'm trying to convince my state legislator that youth atv safety training should not be subsidized through sticker fees and that each parent should be responsible for paying their own way for these classes. If you want to mandate hands-on training for these kids, fine and dandy....just don't yank my chain with all this crap about how one can afford these several thousand dollar machines...yet can't afford to teach their kids how to use them.(my orv leaders even tried to even triple the subsidy percentage going to their non-profits...yet claim that all other orv funding percentages 'would remain the same'....).

I hear a lot up here about personal and parental responsibility....how about allowing it to start right here in our own community and througth a no-nonsense "pay-to-play" approach that finally/quickly weeds out those who have been the lowest common denominator for so long?

This is basically the same approach that we need to take with motorcyclists concerning non mountain goat type single track trail mileage.
If you want 'me-only' trail mileage....tell the community exactly how much mileage you 'deserve' for the total numbers/hours your group uses the overall system each year...as subsidizing little used minority mileage at the expense of overall access to enthusiasts and their vast majority funding....requires constant need analysis in the long term.

We are letting a lot of enthusiasts 'skate' here in a lot of areas...and if anybody doesn't believe it affects these kids being kept safe in the overall picture....they are kidding themselves.

 

Yeah, I don't know the answer. There are arguments that can be made on both sides. All you have to do is look at boating, or snowmobiles for examples of programs run amok. Ceratinly our foray into Mi single track politics didn't go too well. I am sort of on the fence on the training issue though. At least there is a small incentive for parents to get the training if the factories offer a rebate.. but the problem there is that the CPSC/ATSI training course rules exclude many people that do not fall into their guidelines. Worse yet, try and even FIND an instructor these days. I haven't taught in years now. Before that, I was on a wating list for almost two years, only to finally get a training date, then the class gets cancelled because of inclement weather. Not exactly a nice experience. I still am waiting for the results of the CPSC re-write that was going on a year or two ago. Not a word... Hmmm. I think states that DO put together their own programs that DO reward a kid that can demonstrate skills to allow them to move us to a higher class is a step in the right direction. I do not however think a course that consists of nothing but classroom and a test is all that helpfull either. We have been kicking these problems around for a long time now. Nothing is getting done.
To asnwer the original question though, I think simply making the machines wider WOULD be a positive move that would have a major impact in making these things safer. I doubt anyone would argue with that. That and convincing the manufacturers that making bigger engines may give them the bragging rights.. but if you really want to get my respect, make improvements in design to make them safer. Wider is better. Make a kids machine with a larger frame, but keep the smaller engines. Those two things right there would solve a large percentage of the problems, and really reduce the numbers. I am really surprised with all the aftermarket frame companies out there looking for new markets, that someone with those resources has not stepped up and come out with frame kits for the minis to bridge that size gap without blowing by the engine size rules.

 

Originally posted by[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]ragginbutt:

"...Yeah, I don't know the answer. There are arguments that can be made on both sides. All you have to do is look at boating, or snowmobiles for examples of <u>programs run amok</u>. Ceratinly our foray into Mi single track politics didn't go too well...."[/b]

If there are arguments to be made on both sides....then why are you, I and a few others being chided for even making them....while everybody certainly iinvolved in our Oz-like orv leadership; consider it 'beneath them' to even So much as speak to the other side?
For gosh sakes...we're out here pointing out the disparity and contrast between $5 a year for this (supposed) boots-on-the-ground Oregonian orv sticker program and what often exceeds 5 times that for some of these administratively cost-laden 'exclusive' club memberships...so where pray tell is "national" or even local leadership with a quick opinion on the myriad of issues which affect us (along with a hundred 'taboo' subjects such as present volunteer partnerships morphing into future INEVITABLE bid-based maintenance programs) on any level whatsoever?
I'm supposed to respect both sides of the issue....yet can't even find the rudder on this boat or any captain at the helm with a big loud voice attempting to sail it?

"...I am sort of on the fence on the training issue though. At least there is a small incentive for parents to get the training if the factories offer a rebate.. but the problem there is that the CPSC/ATSI training course rules exclude many people that do not fall into their guidelines...."

If the govt. wants to force these people in to adding "x" amount of dollars on to the price of every machine sold aso that everybody involved feels warm and fuzzy-like inside...so be it.
Our problem lies not only in the issue as mentioned...but the fact that we are turning to yet even more training <u>subsidies</u> affecting orv fund monies on a "first-come/first-served" basis....even when we try to get these kids into a better program!
There is no "prove hardship" clause in these "we can't train 'em all" funds; as many times it is families with comparitively 'more' money basically tasking the time to figure out exactly how to spend less of what they have on these classes or even which one is available to their children(contrary to popular belief; many of these people secured the toys that they haul around today both by resourcefulness and frugality).
Mandated hands-on training for everybody?....love it.
Just don't shove these socialistic "if we throw money at them; they'll get their kids trained and all be better people" programs into the mix for the benefit of nobody; as the present ridiculously priced program has unfortunately proved.

"....Worse yet, try and even FIND an instructor these days. I haven't taught in years now. Before that, I was on a wating list for almost two years, only to finally get a training date, then the class gets cancelled because of inclement weather. Not exactly a nice experience...."

I've had the chance to meet a few older instructors (all of them simply burnt out) and IMO, they never had the professional-type leadership needed in this sport over these many decades to ever support (and even sometimes police) their valiant efforts in the first place. It was a great 'business' that could've been a fine cottage industry within our sport had simple market forces been allowed to work their majic (again, the non-profit leader's dirty word rears its ugly head here once again...non-subsidized "privitization").
I truly admire both your and Muddy's very significant contributions to this sport and always will (I couldbn't hold a candle to either one of you on thios most important issue).
Yet I've witnessed just a little as to the hows and whys of all this youth safety-related burnout occuring...and I see few out there besides you, I and a few others relating all of this to a direction that we've been heading that nobody now seems willing to admit to. (which is a leadership-based denial affecting change; regardless of what way one chooses to look at it).

More (hopefully) later; ran out of time.....