Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Aug 9, 2007 | 08:07 PM
#271
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Well,
where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars. When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class.
The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families.I use to be able to request grant funds from this safety fund because I was a non profit Instructor. For example, lets say that the Dept of Education would allow me enough grant funding to train 500 students for the fiscal year. That meant [by LAW] I could NOT charge a fee of over 25 bucks for the first 500 students I trained during that year. Now once I trained 500 students and used up the grant funding, I could than charge a course fee that would cover ALL of my expenses to perform the safety course.[and ONLY at that time]
This formula worked out OK [though we needed more grant $$] until the safety program switched hands from the Dept Of Education, over to the DNR in Oct of 2003 as per Excutive Order of our State's Governor. When the DNR took the program over, they went ahead and HIRED OVER 500 Instructors allmost overnight,and took away the non profit instructors grant funding to do safety classes and gave this funding to the mostly 500 LEO officers that they hired.
Now whats wrong with that,you ask? Well, for starters, the cops the DNR hired to do these safety classes were hired on the mere fact that they wear BADGES and NOTHING else. Very FEW of them are trained properly [maybe 5%] and VERY FEW of them do HANDS-ON safety training. ALL of them qualify to receive the grant funding that non profit instructors USE to be able to get under the Dept of Education.The DNR conveintly switched the rules over so that only LEO agencies and Intermediate school districts could access ORV grant safety training funds.
So what does ALL the above really mean? It means that now under new DNR administration, that now as long as you are a COP, you AUTOMATICALLY are QUALIFIED to teach ANY ORV safety class AND you'll also get paid ORV safety funds for doing so. All of this with NO TRAINING too. You can now drop little Joey off at your local High School at 6pm, have an UNTRAINED LEO plug in a couple of video tapes that your kids have allready seen when you bought them their ATV/CYCLE,and TRY and have the cop answer real questions that only a professional instructor can answer.The cop then tosses in a 50 question ORV test in front of your kids and if little Joey can score a 70% or above, by God, he has earned his safety certificate.I even had a father tell me that one retired cop did a class with 91 kids in it and told them they were legal to ride POWER LINES in Michigan.[talk about incompetance]
What a completely WASTE of funds. Not only have I PERSONALLY sat thru a few of these safety classes as an undercover student [ to satisfy my OWN curiosity] I have feverishly complained to the DNR about the incompetance of their instructors and the lack of education these kids are receiving. To date [over 2 years now] I have met in Lansing with the DNR over 11 times to discuss proper training of these 500 Instructors, and as of this date, we have not changed a damn thing and the DNR continue to Hire even more incompatant LEO's.
I am currently at my ends witt with these DNR folks and IF proposed changes are not made within this year, I will once again meet with my Lawyer and we will seek legal changes.
Bill
where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars. When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class.
The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families.I use to be able to request grant funds from this safety fund because I was a non profit Instructor. For example, lets say that the Dept of Education would allow me enough grant funding to train 500 students for the fiscal year. That meant [by LAW] I could NOT charge a fee of over 25 bucks for the first 500 students I trained during that year. Now once I trained 500 students and used up the grant funding, I could than charge a course fee that would cover ALL of my expenses to perform the safety course.[and ONLY at that time]
This formula worked out OK [though we needed more grant $$] until the safety program switched hands from the Dept Of Education, over to the DNR in Oct of 2003 as per Excutive Order of our State's Governor. When the DNR took the program over, they went ahead and HIRED OVER 500 Instructors allmost overnight,and took away the non profit instructors grant funding to do safety classes and gave this funding to the mostly 500 LEO officers that they hired.
Now whats wrong with that,you ask? Well, for starters, the cops the DNR hired to do these safety classes were hired on the mere fact that they wear BADGES and NOTHING else. Very FEW of them are trained properly [maybe 5%] and VERY FEW of them do HANDS-ON safety training. ALL of them qualify to receive the grant funding that non profit instructors USE to be able to get under the Dept of Education.The DNR conveintly switched the rules over so that only LEO agencies and Intermediate school districts could access ORV grant safety training funds.
So what does ALL the above really mean? It means that now under new DNR administration, that now as long as you are a COP, you AUTOMATICALLY are QUALIFIED to teach ANY ORV safety class AND you'll also get paid ORV safety funds for doing so. All of this with NO TRAINING too. You can now drop little Joey off at your local High School at 6pm, have an UNTRAINED LEO plug in a couple of video tapes that your kids have allready seen when you bought them their ATV/CYCLE,and TRY and have the cop answer real questions that only a professional instructor can answer.The cop then tosses in a 50 question ORV test in front of your kids and if little Joey can score a 70% or above, by God, he has earned his safety certificate.I even had a father tell me that one retired cop did a class with 91 kids in it and told them they were legal to ride POWER LINES in Michigan.[talk about incompetance]
What a completely WASTE of funds. Not only have I PERSONALLY sat thru a few of these safety classes as an undercover student [ to satisfy my OWN curiosity] I have feverishly complained to the DNR about the incompetance of their instructors and the lack of education these kids are receiving. To date [over 2 years now] I have met in Lansing with the DNR over 11 times to discuss proper training of these 500 Instructors, and as of this date, we have not changed a damn thing and the DNR continue to Hire even more incompatant LEO's.
I am currently at my ends witt with these DNR folks and IF proposed changes are not made within this year, I will once again meet with my Lawyer and we will seek legal changes.
Bill
Aug 11, 2007 | 05:32 PM
#272
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
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From: Northern Virginia, near DC
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
I think BB had it right when he talked about instructor burn out. I htink a lot of guys my age have been soiled a bit becasue no matter how many messages we get accross, the simple truth is it doesn't make a dent. Almost like a snowball effect. The bad stuff keeps growing. Why, hard ot say. I know selling machines on every corner from non traditional means is definately adding to the statistics. Training programs like you mention in MI are one thing. There isn't any consitancy in how laws, rules, guidelines what ever are being enforced. Many states totally ignore the ATV, let alone have programs that regulate their use. And that is what we keep dancing around. On one hand you will NEVER gain the upper hand on injury statistics until more regulation is enacted, yet nobody wants additional involvement by government bureaucrats. None of us can come to agreement on simple things, let alone agree on how to construct a comprehensive program that everyone will buy into. The ultimate answer is going to be the complete elimination of ATV's in general. Then we will have an outcry of "Concerned" persons who complain that their rights are being violated. Well, some of us old birds have already lived through this once. It WILL happen again if we let it. And don't think the snot nosed punks are going ot have any say about it either. We were the Snot nosed punks back then.. and nobody listened to us either. At some point we all just say to heck with it. Get on our machines and ride. I am at the point where I can afford and have bought my own place to ride. And no matter what happens to the sport in general, NOBODY can tell me what I can or can't do on my own land. That I am afraid is where we are heading as a sport. There are fewer and fewer places to ride. Almost the only place to go now is private riding parks. Good if you can find them, but because of legal issues, the rules are so restrictive that the fun is no longer there. I am tired... this is a battle for much younger group of people. My time is up. I leave it up to the guys to have the most to lose. Me, I am old enough to know that I have nothing to worry about from law enforcement. I'll quietly keep doing my thing and they will leave me alone... God help the rest of you...Somebody PLEASE pull the sword from it's stone. I am done with it...
Aug 11, 2007 | 05:40 PM
#273
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
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From: Northern Virginia, near DC
Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Oh by the way, I was at a local dealer today sizing my 12 year old on a new 125 Grizzly. I could have told the guy my son was 16 but decided to be honest and the sales guy starts telling me ways to skirt the "System". Now what the heck are we teaching our kids? I am teaching mine that honesty has it's penalties, but in the end, that is MY policy. So at 12, he rides his 80. He is way too big for it now, but I am going to follow the rules. And so will he, for better or worse. 5'10", 145. Not your average 12 year old. And to think a few short years ago, I was one of those that was railing against the CPSC guidelines... Talk about a 180.. and it was stats and conversations like this that has changed my mind. I educated myself.. and I believe everyone should do so as well. Get involved... get smart.. get Legal.. what ever that is.
Aug 12, 2007 | 12:16 PM
#274
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
I've never agreed with the CPSC age/cc guidelines and never will.. Those guideline are redicules in most cases and are a direct result of what happened in the 3 wheeler days. I much prefer a proper size/fit than to use the age/cc guidelines. Some laws/restrictions are flat out redicules and this is one good example.
Bill
Bill
Aug 15, 2007 | 06:17 PM
#275
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
"Well, where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars...."
I am certainly glad to hear this; as the public was never informed as to any dissention within the ranks by either the DNR or the safety task force when they proposed the tripling of these same subsidies. We get but one side of the story told to us but once every 3 months...with the author (our DNR) not required to give the peon public even 'their' opinion on each and every issue which affects us...one way or the other.(which is no different than the 'private' MMRC so-called representative council...which does not meet in public or give published opinions either with all these millions of dollars presently on the line).
"...When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class...."
And you ran (and I imagine still do) a good program; others didn't....while many kids out there went untrained for a lack of qualified instructors or those who weren't trying to charge these kid's parents to sit in on their kid's classes. Allowing instructors to 'sub-contract' these classes didn't work either; as instructors were getting $100 per kid from the fund...subbing them out for $40...and keeping $60 for "administration"!
Again, you ran what I considered a good program, Muddy...I have simply been called every name in the book for 'daring' to expose the rest of that story.
"...The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families...."
The fund should have been used to train instructors and nothing else. There was no income check or even request for same in the requirements; it was first come/first serve...period. We should have laid the law down concerning hands-on training; paid for as many trainers that wanted to get the proper training (with a pay-back provision if a certain number of kids weren't taught) and allowed the free market system to handle the rest.
Michigan can be a very liberal-minded state; often creating 'victims' out of thin air; not to mention the beauracratic careers 'needed' to serve these people. Off-road enthusiasts are today and always have been far from the poverty line. And if properly training your kid is ndeed something that 'the government' is responsible for?...god help us all.
The Michigan orv public has absolutely no idea as to who is speaking for us right now or even what they are coming up with in our name (safetywise and all other aspects) with untold tens of millions here at stake.
There was absolutely no consensus on regards to the travel management issue in this state (ask John Stewart of the UFWDA if you question this); we have representation on the advisory board presently that isn't even legitimate in terms of their <u>years-ago</u> expired terms...and now...the motorcyclists want to lock out yet even more mileage to the vast majority community after THEIR leadership presided over the worst land closure debacle in the history of this sport!
Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?
Or do they truly believe that the average atv enthusiast either doesn't care or is isn't even intelligent enough to figure any of this out...or both?
"Well, where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars...."
I am certainly glad to hear this; as the public was never informed as to any dissention within the ranks by either the DNR or the safety task force when they proposed the tripling of these same subsidies. We get but one side of the story told to us but once every 3 months...with the author (our DNR) not required to give the peon public even 'their' opinion on each and every issue which affects us...one way or the other.(which is no different than the 'private' MMRC so-called representative council...which does not meet in public or give published opinions either with all these millions of dollars presently on the line).
"...When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class...."
And you ran (and I imagine still do) a good program; others didn't....while many kids out there went untrained for a lack of qualified instructors or those who weren't trying to charge these kid's parents to sit in on their kid's classes. Allowing instructors to 'sub-contract' these classes didn't work either; as instructors were getting $100 per kid from the fund...subbing them out for $40...and keeping $60 for "administration"!
Again, you ran what I considered a good program, Muddy...I have simply been called every name in the book for 'daring' to expose the rest of that story.
"...The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families...."
The fund should have been used to train instructors and nothing else. There was no income check or even request for same in the requirements; it was first come/first serve...period. We should have laid the law down concerning hands-on training; paid for as many trainers that wanted to get the proper training (with a pay-back provision if a certain number of kids weren't taught) and allowed the free market system to handle the rest.
Michigan can be a very liberal-minded state; often creating 'victims' out of thin air; not to mention the beauracratic careers 'needed' to serve these people. Off-road enthusiasts are today and always have been far from the poverty line. And if properly training your kid is ndeed something that 'the government' is responsible for?...god help us all.
The Michigan orv public has absolutely no idea as to who is speaking for us right now or even what they are coming up with in our name (safetywise and all other aspects) with untold tens of millions here at stake.
There was absolutely no consensus on regards to the travel management issue in this state (ask John Stewart of the UFWDA if you question this); we have representation on the advisory board presently that isn't even legitimate in terms of their <u>years-ago</u> expired terms...and now...the motorcyclists want to lock out yet even more mileage to the vast majority community after THEIR leadership presided over the worst land closure debacle in the history of this sport!
Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?
Or do they truly believe that the average atv enthusiast either doesn't care or is isn't even intelligent enough to figure any of this out...or both?
Aug 15, 2007 | 11:08 PM
#276
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected*
Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised. The ORV safety fund would have went from 1 dollar per sticker to getting three bucks put into it.
Somebody is feeding you BS.
Bill
Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised. The ORV safety fund would have went from 1 dollar per sticker to getting three bucks put into it.
Somebody is feeding you BS.
Bill
Aug 15, 2007 | 11:18 PM
#277
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Allowing instructors to 'sub-contract' these classes didn't work either; as instructors were getting $100 per kid from the fund...subbing them out for $40...and keeping $60 for "administration"! ......
END OF QUOTE**
Once again, you are wrong. NO Instructor could legally charge more than 25 dollars per student when they were working under the grant funding.Once their grant funding ran out for the fiscal year, they than could charge a class fee of whatever it costs to perform the class.The only things you've exposed here is un-true statements.
Our ORV Safety funds were NEVER adopted to train instructors. It was set in place to allow users to get a less expensive training class for their kids until such a time as it was used up.
Bill
END OF QUOTE**
Once again, you are wrong. NO Instructor could legally charge more than 25 dollars per student when they were working under the grant funding.Once their grant funding ran out for the fiscal year, they than could charge a class fee of whatever it costs to perform the class.The only things you've exposed here is un-true statements.
Our ORV Safety funds were NEVER adopted to train instructors. It was set in place to allow users to get a less expensive training class for their kids until such a time as it was used up.
Bill
Aug 16, 2007 | 11:25 PM
#278
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Originally posted by blakballed:
"...Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?..."
Response by Muddy4Life:
"...Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised...."
Somebody is feeding you BS.
Bill
(blackballed):
http://mi.gov/documents/ORVAug...ftMinutes_136029_7.pdf (please see "<u>Orv License Fee</u>" on page 3)
and...
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/No...s_143636_7.pdf (not linkable?)
(please see <u>"Orv Safety Education Workgroup Update"</u>; bottom of paragraph; page 2)
Sorry, Bill. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Subsidized crap like this simply drives the price up for everybody by effectively reducing funding for legitimate programs already in place....along with any additional benefits that normal and needed fee increases were designed to provide.
I may have unintentionally mixed up the manufacturer's long bastardized safety program with the DOE's (there's still no way that anybody deserves a $100 subsidy per kid to teach a safety class)...but I had to set the record straight once again on just why we have the safety-related mess we're in today...and who's out there trying to not solve; but profit from it. (I don't necessarily include you in this mess, Bill..yet if I don't simply do the math; who will???).
"...Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?..."
Response by Muddy4Life:
"...Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised...."
Somebody is feeding you BS.
Bill
(blackballed):
http://mi.gov/documents/ORVAug...ftMinutes_136029_7.pdf (please see "<u>Orv License Fee</u>" on page 3)
and...
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/No...s_143636_7.pdf (not linkable?)
(please see <u>"Orv Safety Education Workgroup Update"</u>; bottom of paragraph; page 2)
Sorry, Bill. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Subsidized crap like this simply drives the price up for everybody by effectively reducing funding for legitimate programs already in place....along with any additional benefits that normal and needed fee increases were designed to provide.
I may have unintentionally mixed up the manufacturer's long bastardized safety program with the DOE's (there's still no way that anybody deserves a $100 subsidy per kid to teach a safety class)...but I had to set the record straight once again on just why we have the safety-related mess we're in today...and who's out there trying to not solve; but profit from it. (I don't necessarily include you in this mess, Bill..yet if I don't simply do the math; who will???).
Aug 17, 2007 | 07:36 AM
#279
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself--END OF QUOTE*
I read the minutes and was at the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget. The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?
Towards the REST of the ORV fund!
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself--END OF QUOTE*
I read the minutes and was at the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget. The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?
Towards the REST of the ORV fund!
Aug 17, 2007 | 09:34 AM
#280
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Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
<span class="FTHighlightFont">(quoting blackballed):
Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself..."</span ft>
Muddy4Life's reply:
"...I <u>read</u> the minutes and was <u>at</u> the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget...."
I see that I am going to have to explain this in another manner.
Think of each individual funding program and the percentage that they receive as individual slices of a pie...with all programs expecting to receive a proportionally correct slice of that pie when it is seved up to them from a larger pie pan (funding increase).
When one group tries to (slyly) TRIPLE the size of their piece of this funding pie immediately before the bigger pie is baked...how much LARGER does that entire pie need to be made.... each and every time a larger pie is proposed in the future... to truly make up for these other (now DECREASED) programs....and the proportional increase that they deserve and enjoyed before the <u>one</u> larger slice was cut?
"....The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?..."
C,mon, Bill.
No math on the face of this planet put us at "$18.25" for anything....this is yet again another prime example as to how both local and national leadershp (I've pointed this out to even these guys; who, again, loudly protect their non-profit 'buddies')ues) truly view their membership to be stupider than all get out...and it is why many enthusiasts with even an ounce of professionalism across this country shy away from becomming involved with the arrogant bastards trying to pull this crap.
Youth safety is an issue on which all of us can agree on....yet if we can't even trust our own orv leaders NOT to use same as a vehicle in which to cut funding to other legitimate programs...in order to pad their own pockets in the name of give-away subsidies for largely well-off enthusiasts....we're sunk. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
<span class="FTHighlightFont">(quoting blackballed):
Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself..."</span ft>
Muddy4Life's reply:
"...I <u>read</u> the minutes and was <u>at</u> the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget...."
I see that I am going to have to explain this in another manner.
Think of each individual funding program and the percentage that they receive as individual slices of a pie...with all programs expecting to receive a proportionally correct slice of that pie when it is seved up to them from a larger pie pan (funding increase).
When one group tries to (slyly) TRIPLE the size of their piece of this funding pie immediately before the bigger pie is baked...how much LARGER does that entire pie need to be made.... each and every time a larger pie is proposed in the future... to truly make up for these other (now DECREASED) programs....and the proportional increase that they deserve and enjoyed before the <u>one</u> larger slice was cut?
"....The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?..."
C,mon, Bill.
No math on the face of this planet put us at "$18.25" for anything....this is yet again another prime example as to how both local and national leadershp (I've pointed this out to even these guys; who, again, loudly protect their non-profit 'buddies')ues) truly view their membership to be stupider than all get out...and it is why many enthusiasts with even an ounce of professionalism across this country shy away from becomming involved with the arrogant bastards trying to pull this crap.
Youth safety is an issue on which all of us can agree on....yet if we can't even trust our own orv leaders NOT to use same as a vehicle in which to cut funding to other legitimate programs...in order to pad their own pockets in the name of give-away subsidies for largely well-off enthusiasts....we're sunk. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]