I completely understand your pie method. What im trying to say is that the original percentages that were set forth for this ''pie'' needed to be revamped and looked into. When Law Enforcement takes 33% of the total 16.25 sticker fee and does not even patrol the trails [very much] and harass riders when they are on the trail, there is something wrong with the percentages of each part of this pie and we need to re-think these percentages. Our kids training should receive FAR MORE than 1 buck out of every sticker fee. They SCREWED up the formula's when they were orginated and we need to FIX THEM.

I also found out in last weeks ORV Board meeting that the 53% of the trail portion of our 16.25 does NOT all make it to the ground/trails either. I was informed that when the Administrative part 3-1/8% of the 16.25 sticker fee is used up, that the Department goes into this fund to take a paycheck for themselves. This is BS and it needs to be STOPPED.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...I completely understand your pie method. What im trying to say is that the original percentages that were set forth for this ''pie'' needed to be revamped and looked into...."

(blackballed):
And what I am trying to say here is that...cutting other current orv programs for the sake of safety-related SUBSIDIES is not a legitimate reason to change anything...and that orv leadership all around this country both knows this and is frankly embarrased in regards to these efforts! (not necessarily ashamed enough to stand up like a man to their non-profit 'buddy'about it...but that's another story which reflects just why we as a <u>united</u> community have never stood up for anything significant in the first place).

"...When Law Enforcement takes 33% of the total 16.25 sticker fee and does not even patrol the trails [very much]..."

We have historically rarely formed our individual clubs around any kind of significant partnership with law enforcement and guess what?...if we did...their percentage of our total budget would shrink in direct proportion to our partnership and self-policing programs.

"...these guys cluns around any and harass riders when they are on the trail..."

#1...I really hate that statement....
and #2....I believe in the overall integrity of LEO's to the point that IF they posessed a close relationship with the majority of the offroad clubs out there...that a vast majority of enforcement administrators would see very little need to be out there patrolling our public lands in the first place.

"...there is something wrong with the percentages of each part of this pie and we need to re-think these percentages. Our kids training should receive FAR MORE than 1 buck out of every sticker fee. They SCREWED up the formula's when they were orginated and we need to FIX THEM...."

Again, kids becomming more safe in this sport has never been an issue of dirt poor parents and their inability to 'afford' training. We've never screened for this non-existant problem; no parent worth their salt in the history of our sport has ever complained about it and (frankly) the only ones out there pushing to cut other programs are the only ones standing to benefit from those cuts.

 

Tell me what OTHER ORV programs that would be ''cut'' for the sake of safety subsidies you so elequently speak of? There would not be ONE single area of the ORV fund that would not also increase as a direct result of an increase of ORV sticker monies. Your talking out your asz here again.


Partnership with law enforcement?
You've got to be KIDDING me here on this one. These guys are paid out of OUR ORV FUND to serve us, not harrass us. I've heard MANY horror stories thru my many yrs of teaching safety classes [and 1000s of students] from some very respectable individules [and ORV leaders] about the arrogancy of many[not all] DNR officers and have even seen this myself. Even had a DNR friend of mine tell me that when a DNR recruit goes thru the DNR Academy, they tell you ''if'' you spot an ORV on the trail, they are doing something wrong.. Thats like telling a police office if he see's a black guy in a car while on routine patrol, better stop him, he's doing something wrong. This is profiling no matter which way you look at it and thats not what we pay these guys for---PERIOD... HISTORICALLY, thru the years, its been the DNR that wont cooporate with the clubs. For the most part, its the DNR that wont allow a close relationship between users and themselves. You have NO IDEA of the amount of complaints I get against arrogant DNR officers. I've PERSONALLY even contacted a female DNR officer after she wrote a bogus warning ticket to a client of mine, only to have it dismissed 45 minutes after my conversation with her.

These guys get a portion of their paychecks from our ORV fund, its high time THEY start to work WITH us instead of AGAINST us.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Tell me what OTHER ORV programs that would be ''cut'' for the sake of safety subsidies you so elequently speak of? There would not be ONE single area of the ORV fund that would not also increase as a direct result of an increase of ORV sticker monies. Your talking out your asz here again...."</end quote></div>

Bill,
You defensively claim to "understand" how the tripling of a single safety program funding percentage negatively affects all other funding percentages in the overall budget (when these other programs are kept at the same funding percentage level)...and then turn around to claim that a simple boost in the overall budget 'level'...effectively erases the long-term funding damage that these orv leaders have just tried to pull on both the community and their long-time funding partners?

I'd like to address your beef with law enforcement above also...but I first have to highlight the fact (once again) that orv leadership nationwide continues to believe that their membership is just as stupid as you've just vividly illustrated! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] (when these orv leaders feel that they can get away with the above type of logic or the kind of crap contained in my signature below...it is pretty darn obvious that they have absolutely no respect for the mere 'peons' out here supporting them or certainly any intelligence that we may have beyond these folk's desire for an organization's t-shirt and bumper sticker).

Again, this would all be pretty laughable....it weren't so indisputable and sad.

 

I dont have the EXACT % of where our ORV funds go directly in front of me, but im going to be VERY close with the below figures

* 53% to trail maintenance
* 12% to damage restoration
* 32% Law Enforcement
* 3% Administrative
* 1 buck for safety training

What im claiming is that the above percentages need to be MODIFIED. We do NOT need to give 33% of our ORV funds for LEO purposes when we barely even see them on the trails and when we do, many of them HARRASS riders instead of helping them. IMO, we are overpaying in this department until such a time as DNR can understand that they are suppose to work FOR the riders, not against them. Sure, there are times when a rider DESERVES a citation and a little harsh attitude from a DNR, but for the most part, I do not feel like the DNR do a decent job in this department.

Trail Maintenance?
Another area that we WASTE ORV funds on. Grant sponsers are being paid $$ to do their part and our trails are in terrible shape. We NEED to look at also OUTSOURCING this work to outside contractors who will be held ACCOUNTABLE for inactions of duties instead of being paid without making SURE the job was done right in the first place.

Safety Training?
These percentages were way off from the first day they come up with the one dollar figure. And even MORE today than before,because right now under the DNR administration, out of the 500 or more safety instructors we currently have, very FEW of them have the PROPER QUALIFICATIONS to instruct a class of this nature and they are SUCKING the ORV Safety fund DRY. Kids and parents lose out here.

If we are going to RAISE ORV sticker fee's to 25 bucks per sticker, than lets get these damn % modified in each area so that it best beneifits the entire package of the fund.

 

"Again, kids becomming more safe in this sport has never been an issue of dirt poor parents and their inability to 'afford' training. We've never screened for this non-existant problem; no parent worth their salt in the history of our sport has ever complained about it and (frankly) the only ones out there pushing to cut other programs are the only ones standing to benefit from those cuts."


You folks talk as if your state is the only one affected by problems associated with this activity. You repeatedly refer to ATV / ORV riding as a sport, like high school football or tennis. Well, in the two states with the highest number of kids being killed while engaged in the activety of ATV / ORV riding, KY and WV, very few are killed while engaged in a sporting event. Here's why.

#1 In these two states, and a few others, ATV's have become a cheap alternative to a second car or truck for local transportation needs. No Registration Fees, No license Fees, No Insurance Premiums, No Inspection Fees, No Taxes (beyond the initial sale), and No Driver's Training Requirements. And, kids of dirt poor parents are getting killed at a much higher proportion as direct result. I assure you, this is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM.

#2 In farming communities, ATV's are viewed in much the same way as agricultural machinery. In most states, if ATV / ORV Safety Laws do exist, they do not apply to ATV's operated on farms, or otherwise engaged in agricultural activities. A 13-year-old driving a 350cc utility ATV, with his 9-year-old kid brother as a passenger, operating on the shoulder of a county road to get to a field 1-1/2 miles away from their house is a perfectly normal activity in many states. Yet, dozens of farm kids are killed each year across the country on ATV's. And, you don't think lack of safety training is an ISSUE or a PROBLEM?

#3 Beyond the initial sale of a new ATV from a dealer, in most rural farming regions or remote mountainous areas of these states, ATV's are bought, sold and traded in much the same way as horses changed ownership 150 years ago. As such, there's nothing to stop a 14-year-old from trading a couple months work on a farm, or in a lumber mill, from riding off on a machine that has a greater propensity to kill him than a passenger car or pickup truck. Where's the ATV safety training programs in this scenario? And yes, this too is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM.


Have all of us here forgotten:
Topic Title: "Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?

 

Originally posted by: EEResQ
"....You folks talk as if your state is the only one affected by problems associated with this activity. You repeatedly refer to ATV / ORV riding as a sport, like high school football or tennis. Well, in the two states with the highest number of kids being killed while engaged in the activety of ATV / ORV riding, KY and WV, very few are killed while engaged in a sporting event. ..."

We have the largest maintained system in the nation and are literally (many) years into debating the correct manner in which to teach children orv safety. (maybe not publicly or out here in the light of day...but that's another story). Both of the states that you refer to have not even scratched the surface as to what has already been attempted here in Michigan (with predictable results); so if debating youth safety involving '21st century' funding issues is not relevant here...and we need to instead start debating whether the act of atving is even a 'sport' or not...I'm lost. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

"...#1 In these two states, and a few others, ATV's have become a cheap alternative to a second car or truck for local transportation needs. No Registration Fees, No license Fees, No Insurance Premiums, No Inspection Fees, No Taxes (beyond the initial sale), and No Driver's Training Requirements. And, kids of dirt poor parents are getting killed at a much higher proportion as direct result. I assure you, this is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM...."

The only folks that I have ever seen 'duck' this issue or problem in the 9 long years that "I" have been commenting on this...have been our very own leaders. If you choose to give the people we're supposed to send money into a 'pass' on this...what's your point? I chose to ask the head of the ATVA years ago whether he wanted to go down to Windrock and set up a booth down there (with their name on it) and confront the same people you talk about in person...how far do you believe that proposal got?

"...Yet, dozens of farm kids are killed each year across the country on ATV's. And, you don't think lack of safety training is an ISSUE or a PROBLEM?..."

Uhhhh, Muddy is a pretty well regarded safety instructor and the two of us have even conducted classes together to get more kids trained...are you actually reading these posts or are we simply 'miscommunicating' here?

"...#3 Beyond the initial sale of a new ATV from a dealer, in most rural farming regions or remote mountainous areas of these states, ATV's are bought, sold and traded in much the same way as horses changed ownership 150 years ago. As such, there's nothing to stop a 14-year-old from trading a couple months work on a farm, or in a lumber mill, from riding off on a machine that has a greater propensity to kill him than a passenger car or pickup truck. Where's the ATV safety training programs in this scenario? And yes, this too is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM. ..."

My friend, with all due respect, you are not going to solve any problems here by challenging the point of sale itself when it happens in some back alley. Legislated responsibility (actually creating rules and then funding their enforcement) has not only been fought tooth and nail locally in these areas for decades...but morphed into a 'stand up like a man' issue that no orv leader in the history of this sport (sorry) has ever dared tackle publicly.
I love what you are saying and it certainly needs to be said...just do me a favor and ask just why the same issues aren't being brought up in every community publication that we have...instead of swept under the carpet in favor of how seemingly 'responsible' all of us are in every other place on the planet.(which is why the latest travel management rule and all these massive closures just got dropped on our heads...through no fault of leadership or anyone else besides the greenies and 'the government').

".....Have all of us here forgotten:
Topic Title: "Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries? </end quote></div>..."

What I am proposing that we do....is to start taking a darn close look at exactly just who got us into this safety-related mess, in the first place.

If you can't change a safetyless culture overnight; fine and dandy. Just don't expect me to send money into organizations parented by folks still fighting laws involving helmets on asphalt...as a "don't do as I do; do as I say" approach to any safety-related solution.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Trail Maintenance?
Another area that we WASTE ORV funds on. Grant sponsers are being paid $$ to do their part and our trails are in terrible shape. We NEED to look at also OUTSOURCING this work to outside contractors who will be held ACCOUNTABLE for inactions of duties instead of being paid without making SURE the job was done right in the first place.

(blackballed):
We've been in agreement on this for years and this is truly a national issue...yet national leaders still point to just how great the largest system out there is maintained and what a fantastic job their non-profit 'buddies' are doing in maintaining it.
For profit privitization comes at a loss of both power and money to the leaders in this community...and they obviously would rather blatantly blow smoke up all of our ***** on probably the most important issue that we face....than lose either.

"... Safety Training?
These percentages were way off from the first day they come up with the one dollar figure...."

(blackballed)
I'm obviously not going to get you to talk about parental responsibility as related to financing their own kid's training or the use of a non-subsidized free market system to support a mandatory hands-on training program...so I am just going to give up. You guys are (again) cutting the funding pie into a much bigger piece for yourselves (unbelievably tripling it in size) at the expense of all other current programs funded...period. The major reason that law enforcement stepped in here to do this job (good or bad) was that not enough kids were being trained "period"...and that 'legally' (according to the orv advisory board meeting minutes) it was the opinion of the state that non-profits doing much of the training...weren't even eligible for grants to begin with. http://www.michigan.gov/docume...04Minutes_116183_7.pdf (page 2 under "Lt. Grey").
A jump from 2,800 kids trained a previous year (one way or another) to over 7,000 trained the next; effectively jump-started the entire process you complain about now....yet what if trainers had actually fought for creating and putting themselves all out on a competitive free market (as opposed to hand-out subsidies)....and cut law enforcement out of a job that they really (in many cases) didn't want to do in the first place?

"...If we are going to RAISE ORV sticker fee's to 25 bucks per sticker, than lets get these damn % modified in each area so that it best beneifits the entire package of the fund...."

(blackballed):
The best method of modifying any orv fund (safetywise) is to create opportunities for competition in the private sector that allow these kids to ne trained in the best program possible at the lowest possible price...minus ANY direct subsidies to the trainers themselves beyond the funding needed to properly train more instructors in a mandatory hands-on atmosphere.
We don't need "safety welfare" for parents...we need good 'ol American free market forces and strong orv leadership without their hands in the cookie jar....to effectively force these parents....to help themselves.

 

The State had no ruling on the grant issue for non profit instructors, it was the DNR personal who conviently read into the Administrative rules who got the non- profit instructors kicked out of the program. It was the DNRs DIRECT Intention to TAKE OVER the entire safety program and run it as THEY saw fit, with no outside involvement what so ever.

To a point, they SUCCEDED in getting rid of some pretty darn good Instructors out there in the private sector.Only to have them replaced by some improperly/untrained fly-by-night LEO buddies of their own who dont have much more qualifications than a fly to instruct a class of this nature.

Our parents and youth will suffer in the end!

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
'...The State had no ruling on the grant issue for non profit instructors, it was the DNR personal who conviently read into the Administrative rules who got the non- profit instructors kicked out of the program...."

Again, if you read the meeting minutes... http://www.michigan.gov/docume...04Minutes_116183_7.pdf (page 2 under "Lt. Grey")
...the 'state' had no reason to rule on the safety grant issue for non-profits...as it was a state agency's legal opinion already...that non-profits weren't even eligible for safety subsidies in the first place!
Orv leadership was out there stomping their feet and demanding that the 'Attorney General' get involved....and the state run DNR simply looked these guys in the eye as if to say...if you're so darn sure that our lawyers don't know what in the heck they're talking about...YOU spend your own darn money (as opposed to the public's)...and <u>prove</u> it! (which I'm 'guessing' might have resulted in the state seeking monies previously dispersed).

"...It was the DNRs DIRECT Intention to TAKE OVER the entire safety program and run it as THEY saw fit, with no outside involvement what so ever...."

The state had to step in for the simple reason that not enough kids were being trained....period.
None of us were privy to the negotiations leading up to this (as Michigan orv politics is by far and away the largest public embarrasment in this sport)..but tell us...if you guys are wanting to triple the safety-related subsidies today...from what pie-in-the-sky bargaining position were you approaching the the DNR with THEN...and might an attitude of "the average orver is dirt poor and needs 'x' amount per kid in giveaways" drove the state to say 'screw you' ...we'll kill two birds with one stone and finally achieve our goal of getting many more kids trained in ANY kind of manner? (I mean, c'mon, Bill...the department finally had to publish the fact that they weren't going after kids in violation of the training requirement...because there wasn't enough trainers or opportunities to even take the classes!).

"...To a point, they SUCCEDED in getting rid of some pretty darn good Instructors out there in the private sector.Only to have them replaced by some improperly/untrained fly-by-night LEO buddies of their own who dont have much more qualifications than a fly to instruct a class of this nature...."

Nobody wanted to get rid of anybody and it sure as heck wasn't about any 'buddy' relationship with LEOs having a darn site better things to do than teaching kids how to ride atvs or motorcycles. Our local guys around here weren't 'clamoring' for the job; they were all pretty much forced into it and it was and still is a waste of their time brought on by a few non-profits choosing to take a hard line on just how much darn money per kid that they should have received in subsidized monies.

I hate very much simply telling it like it is here, Bill; because I know that you are dedicated to this sport possibly more than anybody I know of; have given a good portion of your life to it and even spoken out more than everybody else in the community combined. (the latest issue being these arrogant and greedy motorcyclist's push to close down all of our 'now' atv accessible trails by executive order in light of their sickening leadership failure and resulting massive land closure in the National Forests).

Yet the locations in which these kids are being killed/injured/maimed in the highest numbers...are about to go through the same mess and struggle with the same problems that we have had in our comparitive "21st century" safety training system very soon...and I'd just as sonn not witness them make the same mistakes that we have made when it comes to portraying both off-road vehicle operators and their parents as some kind of 'helpless' VICTIMS not capable of seeking the free market out to solve their (our) problems.

Again, it's all about "pay-to-play", Bill...and the sooner that our leaders take up that banner and use it to teach us the true personal responsibility inherently contained within that philosophy...the better.