With all due respect, Bill...I really think that you need to concentrate on those officers not really having any desire to teach these classes in the first place.
Considering the massive budget cuts that we have already went through here in Michigan and with more on the way...I think that you'd be surprised just how many allies you actually have in these departments if the rhetoric was toned down just a notch.

Start with the concept of reducing the need for subsidies by having parents foot the bill or prove hardship (eliminating the need to triple funding at the expense of other programs)....create a privitized for-profit competitive training market to keep non-profits from bastardizing the concept....and advertise the fact that jobs can truly be created in this market through proper (subsidized) instructor training that puts the number of instructors needed out on the streets.

This privitization type concept has saved every level of our government untold 'trillions' over the years and fails only under one model very similiar to the way our trail systems have been maintained from day one.

That is a model in which good old competition or simple market forces are discouraged....and every other guy out there trying to knock on the door or even (god forbid) 'help'?....is a dirty rotten bastard.

Just my $.02

 

HELLOOOOOOO...

Is there anyone else left on this forum interested in the actual topic?

Title: "Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?

The real issues have been misdirected and channeled into a diatribe concerning the financial misdealings involving one state's ATV funds, and the apparent appointment of untrained LEO's as ATV Safety Instuctors in that state; at the expense of others.

Draggonbutt, 440EX, did you guys give up?

I'm outta here too.

 

We are discussing exactly what the community can do to reduce these serious injuiries...and that is to quit posting headlines or pointing out the obvious in our responses....and to get down to the hows and whys of just what is wrong with the sytem that we have.
I haven't witnessed a person yet beyond Muddy; myself and a few others... actually relate these problems that everybody's so 'concerned' about...to any real-life political situation in their backyard; the funding needed to support any kind of 'improved' program needed or even what these kids are being taught to begin with! (Muddy's point regarding mandatory hands-on training).

Any action that we may take on safety-related issues requires somebody <u>to stand up like a man or woman</u> to the same leaders that have kept their mouths <u>shut</u> on these matters for decades now...fearing that any strapping on of a set on themselves....would risk membership/career money flowing into their cozy little Oz-like non-profits.

We have brought up a lot of legitimate points here which merely require somebody with the stones to comment on them...and believe me, the leaders collecting your money every year...hope and pray to heck that you <u>don't</u> (proving 'once again' to every one of them that atvers don't have the 'capacity' to question their arrogant leadership...even with kids dying all around them...to begin with). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

(double post)

 

NO, I haven't given up, I was waiting for one of them to take a breath. I've been down this path before with them and against them. It doesn't matter. A couple thoughts. I agree the discussion has strayed. Most of us do not have the same Michigan politics to fret over, so it is hard for us to get worked up over their local problem. Nor do I get worked up over the plight of KY and WV. If you lived in a state that totally ignores ATVs, like VA, you would understand. At least you have a trail to ride on, and can take your kids and teach them the right and wrong way to do it without having to drive hundreds of miles. No way I can get in a half hour ride any longer around here... and my personal riding area in Wisconsin is 1300 miles away.
You mentioned increased injuries in those two states. I suspect it might have something to do with the number of people travelling to your state to ride from states like mine. I know of many people that go there all the time. Be careful what you wish for. It could end over night.
Education is a double edged sword in my book. I believe everyone needs it, and needs to constantly repeat it every time they ride. Of course that is a fantasy... I also do not have much sympathy with the "I can't afford it" answer either. Take up something else then. You can't play baseball without bats, *****, and gloves. I understand this is different, but not in principal. Just how much does a visit to the emergency room cost these days. Or a Funeral home. The real answer is no matter how much training you get, how much you spend on safety equipment etc, the kids will still have accidents and get hurt. One could argue that no matter what the amount of funds are spent, this basic premise will not change. So you look at something else to attack to make real changes in the safety quotient. I have stated numerous times that 1) we need the CPSC to change their descriptions, mandate WIDER designs in the definitions of each class of machines, and put some real limitations on engine sizes for goodness sake. Anything over 500 CC's is way overkill. (OK, I have my mojo going now, and I have the helmet and flak jacket on). I also agree NOW with some that would mandate a minimum age restriction no matter what the engine size. Of course I have the luxury of speaking this way because my youngest has turned 12 and is now legal for his machine. But those of you that know me can understand just how far my thinking has come on this issue. I also believe that if you DO allow a youngster to ride, it be under VERY STRICTLY CONTROLLED circumstances. Much like a closed course where there are no obsticles to run into, and everyone is going in the same direction. I also advocate use of radio head set communications as well. Put your voice in their ear. Of course you all know I advocate safety gear from head to toe as well. That is a given. The biggest item here is for states to be consistant in application of the machine rules.
Lastly, we all know that we can design and build safer trails. The days of building a 50 inch track that clears your bars by only an inch or two are just not cutting it from a safety perspective. I know there are those that claim that a nuetered trail system would take the excitement out of their riding, but let's face it, that is the kind of excitement we can do with out. Wider trails that are much more environmentally friendly are the only answer. We might just as well bite the bullet on this one and get on board. Any new trail system that is built today will demand it. Maintenence programs can be designed and implimented to facilitate them, and it takes the bite out of the environmentalists argument.
As for money and funding... that is a tough one. Again, I live in a state where there are no programs. So we have no trails. You have to fund them somehow. Complain about it all you want, it isn't going to change the fact that it takes dollars to do what we want done.
What we will eventually end up with in this country is privately held riding areas that will cater to these new guidelines. Those that do not will be doomed to failure.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...I agree the discussion has strayed. Most of us do not have the same Michigan politics to fret over, so it is hard for us to get worked up over their local problem...."

From what I can determine in regards to the overall advancement of youth safety training nationwide; most states aren't getting 'worked up' enough to even begin fretting over either the overall quality of classes taught or what programs even should be! (excuse me, beyond the 'let's just teach ASI' path-of-least-resistance that has 'conveniently' been plopped in front of this community for <u>decades</u> now).
We're up here discussing problems 100% releveant to the topic involving a program in transition displaying the same roadblocks many of you will encounter yourselves when your state finally embraces the 21st century...yet none of these debates are relevant to what we ALL can do to stop the carnage?

"...Nor do I get worked up over the plight of KY and WV...."

I guess that if "Stupid Kills" is the other portion of this topic...and more of this is happening in these two states (by the author's estimation) than any other...then I (respectfully) flat out refuse to take the same stance as both you and more importantly our national leaders take here.
KY had perhaps the largest safety-free zone on the east coast at one time and WV has the biggest contrast in safety related orv activity in the nation....bar none.
We all know why national orv leadership doesn't have the stones to simply go down there and clean house on these issues and frankly...I'm just one person of many who tends to get worked up over it indeed.(sorry)

"...'If you lived in a state that totally ignores ATVs, like VA, you would understand. At least you have a trail to ride on, and can take your kids and teach them the right and wrong way to do it without having to drive hundreds of miles. No way I can get in a half hour ride any longer around here... and my personal riding area in Wisconsin is 1300 miles away...."

Atvs have been ignored in Michigan since day one also and (sorry again) many of us drive literally hundreds of miles to get to those same trails. I think it's something like 580 miles and almost 10 hours (non-stop) from my home to one of the last decent places to ride right here in-state. I appreciate and sympathize with the sentiment; yet it seems that you, I and Michigan seem to have much more in common than you might realize.

(ran out of time; will finish later....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] )

 

Is this guy on steroids; or what?

 

Aw come on ResQ, you are ruining my fun... BBalled, you are Sooo predictable dude... I knew the answer before I even commented...
The thing is that although I am on record that I feel training is very important.. I have evolved my thinking to the point where I am pointing BACK to the core area that started this whole problem in the first place. That is the original CPSC guidelines and their definition of what an ATV is. THEY defined the machine, the engine size versus class rules etc. These rules were adopted by most of the states looking for some document reference when creating programs in their state. With the noted few exceptions, this forms the basis of what we call any form of ATV nation in our country. MI and maybe Wisconsin and MN have some forward thinking on the subject regarding training and ability to move up in class if the kid can demonstrate some skill, (I am not debating their worth) but for the most part, states are using the CPSC guidelines as the basis of their laws. That is accepted... They may have been a good start decades ago, but they have not kept up with technology, the fact that our kids are just bigger than we were back then etc. The trail environments are different too. When the CPSC was written, most otf the riding areas you had were cornfields, back yards and maybe asand pit or two thrown in. We didn't have the massive trail systems you have now. We have grown a great deal with parental responsibility thought as well. Whether we want to admit it or not, the sport as some call it is safer today than it used to be... or at least it could be if the manufacturers would stop playing the "I have a bigger stick that you " game with engine sizes etc. They know full well that a wider machine is safer, but their hands are tied because the class rules in the CPSC limit their ability to go much wider. I don't let them off the hook here, but that is an underlying factor that could easily be legislated/changed etc and WOULD have an impact on safety numbers. Take away or significantly reduce the ability to roll them, and you will eliminate the number one method of injury. Even a sane man can see that. We are not talking radical changes, just an inch or two.
As a parent, I recommend the first thing you do on your kids machine, before putting gas in it, is invest in a set of extenders to extend the wheels further out to make the machine more stable and less likely to roll over. Check their riding areas and if possible reduce or eliminate items that they can run into. Trees and rocks have huge magnets in them that just seem to pull a kids machine into them. If you just take the time to do those two things, you greatly reduce the chance of getting hurt. I doubt all the training in the world will have as much of an impact on injury statistics than those two things.
Youcan take this further, and say that we need to build safer trails.. etc etc etc... all things that could help, but it all gets back to the CPSC guidelines that limit trail width to 50 inches or there abouts. Unless it goes to say 60 inches, the manufacturers will not budge. Mandate it, and we have a new ballgame... BUT YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE CPSC GUIDELINE ATV DEFINITIONS to make it work with state laws.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..BBalled, you are Sooo predictable dude... <u>I</u> <u>knew</u> <u>the</u> answer before I even commented... but it all gets back to the CPSC guidelines that limit trail width to 50 inches or there abouts..."</end quote></div>

Since when...did "the CPSC" get into the trail width limiting business?

C'mon guys...you're supposed to be out there not only 'training' these kids..but concerned enough with just how the orv system actually works to accurately pass on that knowledge and get kids finally involved in the process.

I shouldn't really have to do this [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]...yet below is a very simple example of how a company introduces a new off-road product and the roll of both the CPSC and others in this process:

(From atvsport.com cocerning the company's introduction of the new Redline Revolt 75 HP single seater):

(AtvSport):
Consumer Products Safety Commission help with that decision?
(Redline):
We are planning on marketing the Revolt as an ATV, as it meets the definition of ATV, however, the CPSC will have final decision to its <u>categorization</u>. We are working with the EPA and CARB to meet the ATV emissions and noise regulations.

(AtvSport):
With trail width restrictions varying from state to state, how will this affect your sales across the country?
(Redline):
The popularity of the side-by-sides has prompted many <u>states</u> to revise their regulations. I think the trend to modify the rules will continue.

(blackballed):
Have you learned enough for one day there, guys?....
Or would you like to be schooled yet even further...so that all these snide remarks; insults and even accusation of drug abuse can stop over simple embarrasment on your part as to what our kids are actually being taught?(or not). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

BBalled, I started to explain, but thought best of it. There is no debating with an idiot. Frankly too many people are tired of it. Your point of view has been stated, and duely noted.. now let someone else state something without being attacked. Ah forget it They should have banned you for life.