I suppose that I must have missed the post (as we've witnessed it being mentioned by both yourself and DragginButt in another thread) where somebody up here had evidently called out either for a national or federal mandate involving the ASI or any other issue involved with kid's safety....(?)

 

Federal mandate probably will never happen because it than takes away each States own authority to mandate its own guidelines. I would not be opposed to a federal safety guidline on training IF it were to make SENSE.

 

Again, we can talk about what most likely will never happen...or if it does; what we have absolutely no control over...but obviously nothing involving the hows and whys of a failed welfare-type training program directly responsible for the injury and/or death of America's children each and every day.

A few years ago in Michigan at the largest maintained system in the nation...law enforcement was purposely not even writing citations for kids lacking any kind of training; as the opportunity to get said training in the numbes required just plain and simple weren't there.
Today, we have more kids receiving at least 'some' kind of training from 'somebody'....yet trainers encouraged and supported 100% by national orv leadership....out here demanding that welfare-like subsidies to parents not even proving hardship...should literally TRIPLE at the expense of all other orv programs stretched way to thin as it is.

I don't want to talk about what the federal government may or may not do...I'd like to discuss just how we kill the non-profit fox in the safety-related henhouse....right <u>now</u>.(I also love how the concept of for-profit privitization and actual price competition involving trainers suddenly knocked off the 'non-profit' bandwagon is continually brushed aside here. More trainers paying more taxes=lower prices for parents and less of the 'wrote off' crap that this community is frankly famous for).

 

A few years ago in Michigan at the largest maintained system in the nation...law enforcement was purposely not even writing citations for kids lacking any kind of training; as the opportunity to get said training in the numbes required just plain and simple weren't there. END OF QUOTE*******


Simple not true. Instead, there was absolutely NO RUSH on behalf of ANY Administration to properly train instructors thru out the State so we would have enough of us so that parents would not have to drive 100 miles for a safety class. The DOE administration did not seem to even give a damn about getting enough properly trained instructors because it simply was not a top priority of theirs.The lack of Instructors was brought up time/time again in ORV Board meetings and nobody gave a damn.

Under an Exucutive Order by Jenny Granholm in Oct of 2003, the responsability for these safety classes was removed from the DOE to the DNR. Now instead of 60 or so PROPERLY TRAINED instructors under the DOE [YES we needed MORE], we now have over 500 Cracker Jack Joker's that dont posses the qualifications to instruct Romper Room, much less a ATV/ORV safety class and the DNR are well aware of this.[this is YOUR quote ''some kind of training'']---You take YOUR kids to one of these classes, but I want a WELL QUALIFIED Instructor teaching MY kid the safe/responsable way to respect a machine that could KILL him/her.

Its a total EMBARASSMENT to every ORV instructor who went thru the Administrative Rules and followed them to a T to get licensed under the DOE.

Its like taking a regular ''JOE'' off the street today, and pinning a DNR badge on him without even making him go thru the Academy.

DNR would'nt like it no more than a professional Instructor [such as myself] likes how the DNR licensed instructors under their Administration.

 

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:

(blackballed):
A few years ago in Michigan at the largest maintained system in the nation...law enforcement was purposely not even writing citations for kids lacking any kind of training; as the opportunity to get said training in the numbes required just plain and simple weren't there.

"...Simple not true. Instead, there was absolutely NO RUSH on behalf of ANY Administration to properly train instructors thru out the State so we would have enough of us so that parents would not have to drive 100 miles for a safety class. The DOE administration did not seem to even give a damn about getting enough properly trained instructors because it simply was not a top priority of theirs.The lack of Instructors was brought up time/time again in ORV Board meetings and nobody gave a damn.

The only instructors that those guys were looking for during that time period were 'subcontractors' that wouldn't/couldn't compete for the limited amount of training subsidies available to previously established instructors each year for a limited amount of time. C'mon, Bill...not only was I asked to become one of those subcontractors...but you're back again to blaming everybody else for the simple fact that kids weren't getting trained then; they're getting at least some kind of training now and that the state was forced to cut you guys out of a program that your group cannot challenge 'legally' that you were supposed to be in to begin with.

I don't 'enjoy' setting the record straight here, Bill and agree with you on issues such as mandated hands-on training...yet I believe that folks are getting an education here as how not to set up a training program....which I 'guess' is beneficial, none the less.

"...Under an Exucutive Order by Jenny Granholm in Oct of 2003, the responsability for these safety classes was removed from the DOE to the DNR. Now instead of 60 or so PROPERLY TRAINED instructors under the DOE [YES we needed MORE], we now have over 500 Cracker Jack Joker's that dont posses the qualifications to instruct Romper Room, much less a ATV/ORV safety class and the DNR are well aware of this.[this is YOUR quote ''some kind of training'']---You take YOUR kids to one of these classes, but I want a WELL QUALIFIED Instructor teaching MY kid the safe/responsable way to respect a machine that could KILL him/her..."

This change in direction brought almost 10 times more opportunity for at the very least some kind of training involving Michigan's off-road youth and 100% elimination of very young children 'sliding' on the requirement! (no non-compliance tickets were issued to parents/kids for how long in this state?).

If you would like help in changing this 'unjust' situation from god 'ol conservative leaning fiscal conservative type fellow riders....then forgo the welfare-like subsidies...privitize the training process(and for that matter, trail maintenance, as well)...and wean yourselves off of the non-profit/tax-write-off/subsidy-filled diet that you've all been gorging yourselves on for all these years...in favor of the type of pure profit/competitive market driven vehicle that creates less expensive and much more quality government oversighted programs each and every time that it has ever been attempted!

Hey, and uh 'no charge' for the above advice....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Yah,



and its a damn shame the ORV leadership across America cannot understand a sentence that Mr BB himself writes in any forum.



OR?

It just might possible be that not even ONE of them give a damn about much anything he has to say anymore. [even IF they were able to understand a sentence]</end quote></div>

And the rest of us just shake our heads and mutter "HUH?"

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ
And the rest of us just shake our heads and mutter "HUH?"</end quote></div>

(blackballed's sarcasm-laced reply):
....so yet again we very simpleton-like merely "did you see this?" describe (or link) yet another tabloid-like safety incident....instead of intelligently debating just how we have been stuck in long failed non-profit based safety programs that have been effectively (if not intentioanlly) fueling this carnage from day one.

C'mon guys...even the great topic heading and well thought out thread below titled "Read this and <u>think</u>"...stopped dead in its tracks the minute tabloid-like stories quit being told and a very simple question was asked...whether a non-profit was re-imbursed at the same rate from a non-hardship-proven welfare-like safety fund for hands-on vs 'strictly observer only' service rendered.

Who knows what the answer actually is to that question or whether the community even cares about <u>mandated</u> hands-on training to begin with if (seemingly) 'the fix is in' with any one particular entity (ask Muddy; we obviously don't)...<u>but to portray the readers of this forum as nothing but dim-witted individuals capable of o</u>ny... "Huhhh???" in response to <u>an</u>y of this...does this entire readership a disservice, IMHO. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Your off-road leaders presently not taking a public position on anything controversial or continually meeting behind closed doors might possibly look at us mere peons out here supporting them in this dimwitted light...I don't. (again, c'mon guys...if they can understand just exactly what I am talking about here...y'all darn well can also).

 

I read a few of the many posts here to understand the general issue. Here is what I, as a new owner of ATVs for myself and my 12 year old son, face here in California trying to get some ATV safety training as prescribed by the State. I would prefer not getting into the debate, rather getting some advice from you folks who have much more knowledgeable of the subject.

To me it is just basic common sense to spend a morning taking a course providing the basics of ATV safety. Imparting these key points from a 3rd party to my son I'm sure works better than what I offer to him. The problem is he is 12 years old and there seems to be a 90 cc restriction which does not allow him to get trained on his 150. A few calls to the ATV Safety Institute gave me the idea that loaners are available but only for the small kids, none his age. He can't ride his own quad.

So, here I am, a basic dude trying to do the right thing getting training and feel like the system basically prevents me from getting the necessary training. Maybe I could rent a 90cc for a day so he can take the course. It sure seems like an extra waste of money to have to rent the quad and pay for the training. What options do you folks suggest?

thx

 

Blackballed writes:
"Who knows what the answer actually is to that question or whether the community even cares about mandated hands-on training to begin with if (seemingly) 'the fix is in' with any one particular entity (ask Muddy; we obviously don't)...but to portray the readers of this forum as nothing but dim-witted individuals capable of ony... "Huhhh???" in response to any of this...does this entire readership a disservice, IMHO."

Huh?


Blackballed continues:
"Your off-road leaders presently not taking a public position on anything controversial or continually meeting behind closed doors might possibly look at us mere peons out here supporting them in this dimwitted light...I don't. (again, c'mon guys...if they can understand just exactly what I am talking about here...y'all darn well can also).

No sir, we can't. And that's why you are not part of the solution in Michigan; or anywhere else. You sir, with your disjointed rantings, are part of the problem. Prior to the commencement of your incoherent diatribes, we had a good discussion here.

 

Windetrader writes:

"So, here I am, a basic dude trying to do the right thing getting training and feel like the system basically prevents me from getting the necessary training. Maybe I could rent a 90cc for a day so he can take the course. It sure seems like an extra waste of money to have to rent the quad and pay for the training. What options do you folks suggest?"

Windtrader, you are correct in your attempts to do the right thing and get training for your son, and yourself. However, the system isn't preventing you from receiving this training. While I don't totally agree with the CPSC guidelines on age and engine size restrictions, they exist for some very valid reasons.

Yes, some 12-year-olds can physically handle machines larger than 90cc. However, there's more to safe operation of an ATV than size of the child. Please visit this website before you go further. It will answer many of your questions.

ATV Safety Institute article on CPSC Guidlines in California - Nov 2004

By the way, did the dealer who sold you the 150cc ATV for your 12 year-old explain why he was violating the CPSC guidelines by doing so? I'm sure he didn't. Unfortunately, his motivation for the sale probably exceeded his desire to advance the issue of your young rider's safety.