Welcome th the forums windtrader. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Yes, you are doing the correct thing in trying to get the training.

Just be sure to take some of the postings with a grain of salt. Not everyone here is trying to prove some type of government conspiracy, or rehash any old personal differences in every thread they seem to post in, and eventually take over.

I just wish those people would stop and realize that their rants about secret meetings or where this money or that goes, tends to turn away just as many people from possibly joining any type of organization as they may think the may have joining. I mean, if they're all so crooked, why throw the money to them in the first place.

It's nice to see them make a valid point now and then, but nobody wants to wade through the pages and pages of bs just to try to find it.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>A Certificate is obtained by either completing the ASI ATV RiderCourse, or participating in the course as an "observer."</end quote></div>

There is a clause in the RiderCourse training program that permits those without physical ATVs or those not meeting size/age guidelines to still attend the training and receive a certificate equally valid as if the training was ridden rather than "observed". As it is not a riding techniques course, it covers the safety basics just the same so it hopefully is as effective for my son. And who knows,maybe the boy will actually absorb more of the material without the distractions of operating a quad.

I fully support solid training and safe operations of quads for all ages. Although I don't necessary agree that age should be the primary classification, it is better than nothing. It might be more effective if it was skill/knowledge based but that involves more complex and costly administration.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, did the dealer who sold you the 150cc ATV for your 12 year-old explain why he was violating the CPSC guidelines by doing so? I'm sure he didn't. Unfortunately, his motivation for the sale probably exceeded his desire to advance the issue of your young rider's safety.</end quote></div>

You'll be quite pleased to hear that my recent shopping experiences at ALL major brand dealers here in Northern California has them up front and proactively telling customers about the age/size recommendations. It may actually be a requirement, legal and/or insurance liability wise, that dealers do not actually sell a quad that is not within the stated guidelines. One dealer flat out stated he would not sell me a quad too large for my son. Usually California leads the way and this can be construed as good news that the regs will roll eastward soon, if not already progressing. The Chinese powersports dealers were much more relaxed about pushing the CPSC guidelines, other than having the necessary warning stickers on the fenders and maybe a slight mention that it was not necessarily the best idea to disregard the warming but clearly were willing to forge ahead to a sale.

Thanks for the feedback. There are courses nearly every weekend somewhere nearby, so we should be going in no time.

 

Windtrader,

Great! About 3 years ago I took the ATVSI ATV Operator's Course with my 16 year-old daughter. We both had a good time, and carried away a renewed respect for just what's involved in the safe operation of these machines. You won't regret it.

One thing I'd like to add is that you should allow your son to actively participate in the ATVSI course as an operator. Unless your son is just to big to safely handle a 90cc machine (Yes, to big is about as bad as not big enough.), I would allow him to operate one of the loaner 90cc machines that should be available on the day of the training. To facilitate this, a few weeks prior to your scheduled course, you should receive a letter with contact information for the ATVSI instructor assigned to teach your class. Contact him or her and explain your concerns. I'm certain they will come up with a solution.

As there are several ATVSI instructor's lurking on this forum, if your instructor doesn't offer a solution, bring up the topic again, and ask for their advise.

Good luck, and as always...

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>One thing I'd like to add is that you should allow your son to actively participate in the ATVSI course as an operator. Unless your son is just to big to safely handle a 90cc machine (Yes, to big is about as bad as not big enough.), I would allow him to operate one of the loaner 90cc machines that should be available on the day of the training.</end quote></div>

My preference is to ride rather than observe but a loaner for my son was not an option for my son the lat time I called (about a week ago). I'll check again with the Institute tomorrow. The last conversation was long and repeated with the registrar about a loaner for my son. What I finally gathered is they do have them for the small kids (70cc) and not for the 12-16 year old (90cc).

I called last year about loaners and they said they had them but then my son was 11, so maybe they were offering 70cc loaners. I'll report back what I find out.

Thx

UPDATE - I called ATVSI today and was able to sign up for a class that does have loaners for 12-15 "teen"! The last guy I spoke to apparently was not aware of the full capabilities of the various classes. Here in California it is free for the kids and since we bought a couple of new ones, the class for myself and my wife are also free. Not sure if that holds true as quads are Chinese and it seemed that only some of the major mfgs are paying for the adult training. Maybe Ca is funding the others. At worst case, I'm out some $$ for the classes. Still worth it.

 

BB,
1+1 still equals 2 no matter HOW you add it up...You brag all you want about the kids getting ''some training''under the DNR administration, but the fact of the matter is that the DNR is sucking the ORV safety part of our 16.25 sticker fund DRY with untrained and unprofessional instructors who have very little [if any?] qualifications to instruct a class of this nature.

Go ahead and back these guys all you want, but SOME training is NOT good enough for a machine that can kill you IMO. Hell, if ''some training'' is OK with you ,than why dont we just all together BAN the mandidtory requirement of training kids under 16 as long as the parents sign a waiver that their kids read a book on ORV safety?

It'd sure be a hell of a lot cheaper and the results would be a heck of alot more than what our kids are being taught now from most untrained LEO's.

 

Muddy,

Are the ATV funding problems and ATV instructor qualification issues you describe (see below) confined to the state of Michigan?

"...kids getting ''some training'' under the DNR administration, but the fact of the matter is that the DNR is sucking the ORV safety part of our 16.25 sticker fund DRY with untrained and unprofessional instructors who have very little [if any?] qualifications to instruct a class of this nature."

If so, it might be helpful if this point could be made clear to all.

In my state, Kentucky, we have no ATV fees, hence no direct funding for ATV safety programs. However, through dealer participation in the ATVSI program, we do have access to the training. And, the ATVSI instructors I have met do know their stuff! Most are civilian ATV enthusiast who went out on their own and received the necessary training and certification required to properly teach the courses.

Also, the Kentucky Department of Agriculture has allowed their Farm & Home Safety Program coordinator to develop both ATV Safety programs for school age kids, and ATV Rescue courses for emergency responders. While still to early to quote real numbers, both of these courses are beginning to show results as lives are being saved. Now, if we can just get these efforts funded, so, like in the Farm Safety Program, we can present the courses in all 120 counties over a two year period.

By the way, the ATV Safety and Rescue Program was held at the Pike County Regional Fire & Rescue School, in Eastern Kentucky, this past weekend. Another 20 emergency responders, including fire fighters, emergency medical technicians, technical rescue specialist, and police officers, participated in the two day / 16 hour hands-on course.

To sum it up, activities such as these in Kentucky, and the efforts of parents like Windtrader in California who didn't give up when he couldn't get the necessary training for his 12 year-old from the first bureaucrat they encountered, are the answers to the question posed by the thread title: Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?

So as always,

 

QUOTE*
Are the ATV funding problems and ATV instructor qualification issues you describe (see below) confined to the state of Michigan?END OF QUOTE*

I cant reply on whats going on in other States. I only know the troubles that Michigan has.

The ASI [ATV Safety Institute] IC [Instructor Course] is as good as it gets IMO. It use to be the widely used standard that Michigan Instructors used to get their training and these Instructors were widely accepted under the Department of Education when they were running the ORV safety program here in Michigan.

The PROBLEM with the ASI training program for our kids on a State/State basis is that the instructors MUST teach within the AGE/CC guidelines set forth by the CPSC,

*Ages 6-11 must not operate any ATV over 69cc
*Ages 12-15 must not operate any ATV over 90cc

This means that an ASI instructor CANNOT teach a kid on any ATV that does not meet the above stipulations. And 95% of the kids in America do not ride ATVs that meet the above criteria and hence, do NOT qualify for ASI training.

So as you can see, the ASI program actually IMPEDES training of our kids.

In Michigan, the instructor is able to instruct a kid based on a proper SIZE/FIT rather than using the CPSC AGE/CC guidlines. Problem is, the DNR went and REMOVED the mandidtory requirement that mandated training your kid on his/her ATV..

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>he PROBLEM with the ASI training program for our kids on a State/State basis is that the instructors MUST teach within the AGE/CC guidelines set forth by the CPSC,

*Ages 6-11 must not operate any ATV over 69cc
*Ages 12-15 must not operate any ATV over 90cc

This means that an ASI instructor CANNOT teach a kid on any ATV that does not meet the above stipulations. And 95% of the kids in America do not ride ATVs that meet the above criteria and hence, do NOT qualify for ASI training.

So as you can see, the ASI program actually IMPEDES training of our kids.

In Michigan, the instructor is able to instruct a kid based on a proper SIZE/FIT rather than using the CPSC AGE/CC guidlines. Problem is, the DNR went and REMOVED the mandidtory requirement that mandated training your kid on his/her ATV..
</end quote></div>

@MUDDY4LIFE,

As a new owner of ATVs getting enrolled in a safety course was fairly straightforward. At first I was put off by the age/size restrictions but after reviewing the contents of the following materials I feel better about having my 12 year old ride a 90cc for the class. Learning many of the topics are really not affected by the specific quad being ridden in class.

"Tips and Practice Guide for the All-Terrain Vehicle Rider" booklet
http://www.atvsafety.org/InfoS...s/ATV_Riding_Tips.pdf


"Parents, Youngsters, and All-Terrain Vehicles" booklet
http://www.atvsafety.org/downloads/pya.pdf


Exercise 1 - Controls . . . . . . . . . 42
Exercise 2 - Braking . . . . . . . . . 44
Exercise 3 - Turning . . . . . . . . . 46
Exercise 4 - Sharp Turns . . . . . . 48
Exercise 5 - Quicker Turns . . . . 50
Exercise 6 - Quick Stops . . . . . . 52
Exercise 7 - Hills . . . . . . . . . . . . 54
Exercise 8 - Traversing Hills. . . 58
Exercise 9 - Riding Over Obstacles

I also think it is necessary to allow the training to be given to those who do not currently own their own quad or have one that is not in the size/age range. It seems to me that the training would benefit those who rent ATVs on vacations as well as those who have larger units.

Also, there are loaners available for classes, so this makes it a true hands-on experience for the students. Given that this material is covered adequately, I can not see any negatives and how it impedes training our kids in any way. It could be better but what is being offered is a lot better than nothing.

California is pretty progressive in that the training is offered for free to kids, irregardless if one was purchased or not. There are few deals better than riding a free loaner quad and taking a free safety training course!

Lastly, take a look at the ATV fatality stats by state. I don't have the actual figures how many actual ATVs are operating in each state but I have to assume that California has a lot more riders than Kentucky or North Carolina, for example. During the 5 year period 2002-2005, California reported 76 ATV related deaths while Kentucky reported 143 and North Carolina reported 103. Several other states reported higher deaths than California and I am sure on a per capita basis the death rate for California is probably one of the lowest. So something is being done right in some states and doing some good to train kids properly and keep them safe.
http://www.atvsafety.gov/state/statestats.html

 

You dont understand HOW the ASI safety course IMPEDES training of youth?

Its real simple, if your youth does not train on the correct engine size ATV for his age, he DOES not get training thru ASI.And the loaners are a JOKE at best. Instructors have to PULL THEIR HAIR OUT to get a dealership to give them a loaner ATV,so MOST ASI instructors do NOT have enough ''loaner'' ATVs to go around, IF they can even get ONE?

And the student does NOT get FREE training thru the ASI safety course UNLESS the new ATV they purchased meets the AGE/CC guidelines for the student riding it. So if you purchased a new 250cc ATV, and your 12-15 yr old needs training, you would have to not only have the instructor make sure he has a 90cc loaner available for your kid, you would also wind up PAYING for this kids training.

And trying to fit a kid 12-15yrs old that is 5"7 and weighs 150lbs on a 90cc ATV? When he is forced to operate an ATV on the ASI obstacle course that does not PROPERLY FIT him and trys to perform some of the track obstacles that you mention above, he cannot perform them correctly because he is riding an ATV that does not fit him and that defeats most of the OBJECTIVE of that particular lesson plan he is doing on the track.

There is very little you can tell me about the ASI safety course [if anything]??I taught it for years here in Michigan and even received some awards from ASI. ----ASI is losing a TON of instructors because of the AGE/CC guidelines and until they are revamped, they will continue to lose instructors.

 

Windtrader states...

"Lastly, take a look at the ATV fatality stats by state. I don't have the actual figures how many actual ATVs are operating in each state but I have to assume that California has a lot more riders than Kentucky or North Carolina, for example. During the 5 year period 2002-2005, California reported 76 ATV related deaths while Kentucky reported 143 and North Carolina reported 103. Several other states reported higher deaths than California and I am sure on a per capita basis the death rate for California is probably one of the lowest. So something is being done right in some states and doing some good to train kids properly and keep them safe."

So right you are!

Unfortunately, a major contributing factor in many ATV fatalities that occur in Kentucky and West Virginia (#1 and #2 in ATV fatalities for years) is the commonplace use of "All Terrain Vehicles" as a cheap secondary means of transportation by rural families.

The following is from a post submitted in mid-August: (Please forgive my sarcasm at the end of each point made; I was responding to someone with a very shallow view of the problem.)

#1 In these two states, and a few others, ATV's have become a cheap alternative to a second car or truck for local transportation needs. No Registration Fees, No license Fees, No Insurance Premiums, No Inspection Fees, No Taxes (beyond the initial sale), and No Driver's Training Requirements. And, kids of dirt poor parents are getting killed at a much higher proportion as direct result. I assure you, this is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM.

#2 In farming communities, ATV's are viewed in much the same way as agricultural machinery. In most states, if ATV / ORV Safety Laws do exist, they do not apply to ATV's operated on farms, or otherwise engaged in agricultural activities. Thus, a 13-year-old driving a 350cc utility ATV, with his 9-year-old kid brother as a passenger, operating on the shoulder of a county road to get to a field 1-1/2 miles away from their house is a perfectly normal activity in many states. Yet, dozens of farm kids are killed each year across the country on ATV's. And, you don't think lack of safety training is an ISSUE or a PROBLEM?

#3 Beyond the initial sale of a new ATV from a dealer, in most rural farming regions or remote mountainous areas of these states, ATV's are bought, sold and traded in much the same way as horses changed ownership 150 years ago. As such, there's nothing to stop a 14-year-old from trading a couple months work on a farm, or in a lumber mill, from riding off on a machine that has a greater propensity to kill him than a passenger car or pickup truck. Where's the ATV safety training programs in this scenario? And yes, this too is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM.

Back to the present: A good friend of mine (the author of KY's new ATV Safety & Rescue Training Programs) looked at this problem and concluded: Kids who are already in high school, and habitually operating ATVs in an unsafe manor, are probably not going to be positively affected by any safety program we develop. What we need to focus on is the next generation of ATV riders (elementary and middle school students) and their parents. We did not totally give up on high school age riders; but, we're admitting we stand a better chance of success at behavior modification before the testosterone factor kicks in.