Originally posted by: EEResQ

To both PC Commandos: (BB and Muddy)
'... I have also found most of your post to be argumentative, combative, inaccurate, and unhelpful to someone looking for advice on youth ATV training. In fact, very little of what the two of you post is even closely related to the topic here..."

If you've found anything to be inaccurate here, my friend...you haven't blessed us with any kind of correction as to what hat was. As for folks looking for advice on youth atv training as related to your own topic heading...are you able to distinguish between "'what the community can do" about dead kids....and a thread concerning training locations?

Again, if you can't even figure out what your own topic heading is all about....how can you admonish others to go someplace else with their many faceted and plainly spelled out safety training solutions?

Maybe you can post yet another tabloid story from the Appalachian area...and we can all get back to sighing about how sad this all is or how you wish that your state was even half as progressive as Michigan is at least right now 'trying' to be....(oh, and we promise not to talk about any other solutions other than the ASI program...even if this bold experiment ends up working). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Originally posted by: Scootergptx:
(blackballed):
Allow me to copy the balance of my original post that you conveniently left out:</end quote></div>
Scooter:
Oh, do as I say, not as I do. [IMG][/IMG]
I worked with a woman that was like that. Sorry for not recognizing it.

Again, Scooter (and I just told the same thing to EReSQ)...if you have a problem with anything that I've said to date on a factual basis...please dispute it.

Otherwise, you are merely receiving another fellow rider's view on this entire matter...and I don't necessarily appreciate the snide remarks. (there's just no reason for it).

 

I apologize if that came across as snide.

Personally, I thought it was pretty blatant. I'll work on that.

 

Yes BB, you are right, in your conspiracy theory style beliefs about non-profit ATV organization leaders lining their pockets with your ATV fee funds, or giving it to poor parents of underprivileged youth riders who cannot afford to pay for ATV safety training. How dare us question the validity of your visions.

Also BB, you are right, the posting of news articles which highlight recent events directly related to the topic herein are tabloid in style. Shame on us for bringing forth examples of the problem.

And finally BB, you are right, the posting of information about unique training opportunities for emergency responders who are learning to save the lives of persons who find themselves involved in ATV accidents has nothing to do with your view of the topic either. Can you ever forgive me for failing to understand your multiple points of view?

Please BB, accept my sincerest apology for offending you by posting such information on a forum which includes in the topic: "What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?" I'm certain, in your mind, such information has no place here.

I'll try to adjust the content of my post to be more in line with your beliefs; just as soon as I figure out what it is that you are saying.

 

Sorry fellows, I did'nt mean to get caught up in all of BB's BS---I'll refrain form further comment in here that does not relate to the topic.

Please accept my apologies.

 

OK. Apology accepted Muddy.

Now, let's get back on track. I think you're a valuable resource for how the ASI programs were supposed to work. Unfortunately, in your state, they are now broken.

Here's a reprint of an article outlining what we are trying to do in my state.

Safety: It's all about making smart choices.

KDA's Farm & Home Safety Program has developed courses on driving all-terrain vehicles and lawn mowers safely.

Farming was already Kentucky's most dangerous profession before the upsurge in ATV popularity that accelerated in the 1990s began swelling the toll of death and injury. Kentucky leads the nation in ATV deaths from 2000 to 2006 with 143. Bigger and more powerful lawn mowers and ATVs have increased the risk of injury and death.

KDA added its ATV safety course in 2005 as a pilot project in several counties. A proposal to include $120,000 in the state budget for the course failed to win approval in the 2006 Kentucky General Assembly.

"Kentucky has suffered more from injuries and deaths in ATV accidents than any other state," Commissioner Bruce Farmer said. "Our ATV education program shows people can minimize risk on their ATVs and still have fun."

Ray Marcum survived an ATV accident but was left injured for life. His accident shows it is easy to get hurt on an ATV - even when trying to be careful. Marcum was going only about seven miles per hour in second gear when his ATV ran over an old fence line. The wire whipped across Marcum's face and damaged his right eye. The injury required more than 70 stitches around the eye. For six months he couldn't open or close it. More than two years later, he still had problems with depth perception. "I've got some injuries I'll deal with the rest of my life, he said. For all his care, Marcum made two fateful mistakes: He rode without prior ASI training - the incident occurred during his first ride on a vehicle he had purchased from a neighbor - and didn't wear a helmet. "I didn't think I needed training because I wasn't going to do any hot-*******," he explained. Now he thinks he wouldn't have been badly hurt if he had taken some training and worn a helmet and goggles.

The Kentucky Farm & Home Safety Program staged a rescue of a "victim" of an off-road accident in Georgetown, Kentucky, in June 2006. In July, the safety program course was presented to Hodgenville city workers. Zero radius mowers were added to the program's curriculum at the 2006 Kentucky State Fair. KDA's Farm & Home Safety Program has been to every Kentucky County since it began in 1998, but, as it remains unfunded, the ATV Safety Program is taught as time and funds permit.

Safety lectures and slide shows are enlivened by staged rescues of a volunteer "victim" of a re-created accident. The program's tractor rollover simulator and its miniature grain bin illustrate safety issues at these gatherings and at the Kentucky State Fair every year. Safety: It's all about making smart choices.

KDA's Farm & Home Safety Program has developed courses on driving all-terrain vehicles and lawn mowers safely.

Farming was already Kentucky's most dangerous profession before the upsurge in ATV popularity that accelerated in the 1990s began swelling the toll of death and injury. [b]Kentucky leads the nation in ATV deaths from 2002 to 2006 with 143. Bigger and more powerful lawn mowers and ATVs have increased the risk of injury and death.

KDA added its ATV safety course in 2005 as a pilot project in several counties. A proposal to include $120,000 in the state budget for the course failed to win approval in the 2006 Kentucky General Assembly.

"Kentucky has suffered more from injuries and deaths in ATV accidents than any other state," Commissioner Farmer said. "Our ATV education program shows people can minimize risk on their ATVs and still have fun."

Ray Marcum survived an ATV accident but was left injured for life. His accident shows it is easy to get hurt on an ATV - even when trying to be careful. Marcum was going only about seven miles per hour in second gear when his ATV ran over an old fence line. The wire whipped across Marcum's face and damaged his right eye. The injury required more than 70 stitches around the eye. For six months he couldn't open or close it. More than two years later, he still had problems with depth perception. "I've got some injuries I'll deal with the rest of my life," he said. For all his care, Marcum made two fateful mistakes: He rode without prior training - the incident occurred during his first ride on a vehicle he had purchased from a neighbor - and didn't wear a helmet. "I didn't think I needed training because I wasn't going to do any hot-*******," he explained. Now he thinks he wouldn't have been badly hurt if he had taken some training and worn a helmet and goggles.

The Kentucky Farm & Home Safety Program staged a rescue of a "victim" of an off-road accident in Georgetown, Kentucky, in June 2006. In July, the safety program course was presented to Hodgenville city workers. Zero radius mowers were added to the program's curriculum at the 2006 Kentucky State Fair. KDA's Farm & Home Safety Program has been to every Kentucky County since it began in 1998, but, as it remains unfunded, the ATV Safety Program is taught as time and funds permit.

Safety lectures and slide shows are enlivened by staged rescues of a volunteer "victim" of a re-created accident. The program's tractor rollover simulator and its miniature grain bin illustrate safety issues at these gatherings and at the Kentucky State Fair every year. The number of farming-related fatalities in Kentucky has fallen by half, from 50 in 1995 to between 24 and 26 a year from 2001 to 2006. Now, the program is trying to do the same with ATV accident numbers in the state.

 

Everyone here makes some really good points. Having the manufacturers and dealers promote safety is an excellent start, but it really isn't going to make that big of a difference. I've been riding dirt bikes, ATVs, trikes, go carts, etc for about 15 years. The first machine that I ever purchased new from a dealer was 2 months ago. So that was the first time I was ever exposed to things like free training and the like. None of the previous owners of other machines that I've owned ever offered me free training. I was lucky enough to grow up with safety conscious parents and older cousins who taught me how to ride safely, and correctly. My point is that I would guess that the average ATV probably exchanges hands 3 or 4 times through-out it's lifetime, which means that only the first owner will reap the benefits of free training and proper instruction, while the people who don't have the money and/or need to buy new are never offered these benefits. I've never even bought a used machine that came with an owner's manual. So, maybe the answer is to require a license to operate an ATV, but I doubt that Joe-everyman is gonna go get a license to ride on his own property. So, I guess I ddon't have a solution, just thought I'd add my $0.02

 

More riders need to RESPECT the power of their machines, which in turn would result in less accidents and deaths!!!

 

"So, maybe the answer is to require a license to operate an ATV, but I doubt Joe-everyman is gonna go get a license to ride on his own property. So I guess I don't have a solution, just thought I'd add my $0.02."
BradW

Hey Brad,

Your 2-cents worth is in fact a major part of the solution.

While many ATV accidents do occur on private property, in the states with the highest number of fatalities (WV, KY, PA, NC and FL for the years 2002 through 2005) each year an increasing number of ATV riders and passengers are killed while operating off-road vehicles on local, county and state highways.

If we require MV operators to study traffic laws and pass an examination specific to the class of vehicle they intend to operate on public highways, then why do we NOT require the same for ATV operation on these same public highways? Additionaly, ATV licence holders should be held criminally liable for the unsafe operation of ATVs that results in serious injury or death, just as MV operators are responsible for unsafe operation of MVs which results in serious injury or death.

I admit, the training, testing and licensing of ATV operators will not stop idiots from killing themselves while engaging in unsafe ATV operation. However, if training and testing prior to receiving an ATV license is mandatory to operate an OHV "except on one's own private property" it will help reduce the number of accidents involving new ATV riders; especially the young parent who puts their 4-year-old between their legs and runs down the road at 40 MPH!

 

Just a quick report back on the ATVSI training My son and I took last weekend here in Northern California. The training was well worth the time and effort to get a good introduction to the basics of riding a quad safely.

Here in California the ATVSI course is free to anyone under the age of 16 and free to those who purchase new quads from the major brands. Some also even include a $100 check to attend the free training. It is clear they are doing everything possible on a non-legislated basis to get everyone who rides a quad to some form of training.

The course we took ran about 4 hours and was run by a very professional instructor who teaches classes from LA to SF. He had a large trailer full of current year demo Honda quads. He also does a lot of training for corporate business clients whose employees use quads during the course of their work. The usual corp farms but interestingly enough a fellow student attended due to his job as a chemical pest chemist. He needs to get to various in-the-bush places to check on pests and chemical insecticide use.

I brought my own but my 12 year old son used a 90cc loaner. Yes, it was undersized for him but it served its purpose. The course did a good job of covering the basic ways to ride quads in various conditions: uphill, down hill, slight and harp curves, proper braking, etc. He was very clear about insisting on the proper safety gear.

During the course I kept thinking this was really basic but after the class we headed over to Carnegie and it was a delightful surprise that the training did help. Both my son and I felt more confidence in riding up and down steeper hills that we had avoided on earlier trips. I think learning the proper techniques to ride off camber trails was the most useful for me.

All in all, it was very well worth the effort and given the incentive of free and for some being paid to attend, it is a no-brainer.

So much of this thread is bashing one training group or another or the proper size bike but based on my own real experience none of these issues came anywhere close to offsetting the benefits we received by attending the course.

I think California is doing a great job at promoting safe ATV usage and successful partnering with the ATV vendors to maximize voluntary education of ATV riders in California.